Ask The Vietnamese About War, And They Think China, Not The U.S.
In one of the many war cemeteries in Lang Son, a city in northern Vietnam, Pham Thi Ky and her family light incense and offer prayers for her brother-in-law, who died 36 years ago in Vietnam’s brief but bloody border war with China.
That 1979 war left more than 50,000 dead. There are other graves here, too. They fought and died against the French occupiers, then the Americans. But relative to China, those were brief battles.
No country weighs on Vietnam like China, and it has been that way for centuries. Has the conflict with China ever really ended, I ask Pham Thi Ky as she lights another candle.
“No,” she says. Her daughter agrees. Her sister is even more emphatic. “It will never end. With the Chinese, how can it ever end?”
谅山，越南北部的一个城市。在这个城市多个战争公墓之中的一个，Pham Thi KY和她的家人焚香祭奠她的姐夫。36年前，他死在越南与中国的短暂却血腥的边境战争中。
多个世纪以来，没有哪个国家象中国一样在越南人心中占有如此大的比重。当Pham Thi KY她点燃另一支蜡烛时，我问她：”曾经和中国的冲突真的结束了吗”。
Vietnam’s 2,000 year history with its northern neighbor is complex. There have been countless conflicts as well as shared culture. The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Chinese characters. China is also Vietnam’s largest trading partner.
The two countries share a communist ideology shaped in part by their shared history, an ideology largely abandoned by the rest of the world. That helps explain why the 1979 border war is something neither government likes to talk about. But Nguyen Duy Thuc, a veteran of that war, is happy to.
“On the morning of the attack, February 17th, we were sleeping when the Chinese artillery started, then we all ran to our posts,” he says. “Some were dressed, others didn’t even have time to put their pants on, they just ran to their posts to fight.”
2000年来，越南它的北方邻居关系极其复杂。在无数的冲突同时共享文化。在河内的文庙是一个很好的例子。越南国王Ly TháNH TôNG 1070建造以供奉中国哲学家孔子。墙壁上的教导都是用汉字写的。另外中国是越南最大的贸易伙伴。
At least 200,000 Chinese troops poured into northern Vietnam all along the border. China was aiming to punish Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia the month before to oust the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. There were so many Chinese attacking, Nguyen Duy Thuc remembers, that the soldiers in his bunker “fired our AK-47s until the muzzles turned red and they couldn’t fire anymore.”
But the Chinese kept coming; eventually his bunker was overrun. The Chinese, he says, pumped gas into the ventilation system. There were 800 people, including soldiers, women and children, who fled the fighting in his bunker, Nguyen says.
Only he and two others managed to escape. After nearly a month, the Chinese withdrew, though border clashes continued for the next decade. And Nguyen Duy Thuc hasn’t forgotten. If he catches his wife trying to watch a Chinese movie, he turns it off.
Memories of that war, and the many other bouts of invasion, occupation and retaliation throughout history, color Vietnam’s relationship with China.
That’s especially true now, with the two countries at odds over what Vietnam views as Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea. When China parked an oil rig in contested waters last year, Vietnam upped its official anti-China rhetoric.
And anti-China rioting left at least a dozen dead, including four Taiwanese mistaken for Chinese. As tension grew, and Chinese and Vietnamese boats played a dangerous game of chicken near the rig, some in the border town of Lang Son grew worried. They feared a repeat of what happened in 1979.
“Last year, we were very frightened. We started stockpiling rice and food. I was very worried that there would be war,” says Pham Thi Ky, the woman at the cemetery.
Back in 1979, she says she was forced to flee with nothing but the clothes on her back, so this time she wanted to be prepared. She even went to the bank to withdraw a large sum of money, just in case. But the bank wouldn’t give it to her, apparently fearing a run.
Vietnam isn’t the only one worried.
一场反华暴乱导致了12人死亡，包括四名误认为大陆人的台湾人。两国关系持续紧张，中越船只在南海玩起了危险的游戏（chicken near the rig）。有的在边境城镇–谅山的人开始担心1979重演。
“去年，我们非常害怕，开始储存大米和其他食物” Pham Thi KY在墓地中跟我说。
The Obama administration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted, in part, by the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has its Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.
In the South China Sea, China continues to build on several disputed islands and reefs. In April, satellite photos revealed China was constructing a 2-mile-long, military-grade runway on Fiery Cross Reef, prompting howls of protest from the Philippines and Vietnam, both of which claim the island as their own.
“We think this can be solved diplomatically, but just because the Philippines or Vietnam are not as large as China doesn’t mean that they can just be elbowed aside,” President Obama said.
Duong Trung Quoc, a member of Vietnam’s National Assembly and editor of the magazine Past & Present, says, “I think China is not only Vietnam’s problem, but the world’s problem right now.”
Duong says he admires how China appears to be the only civilization in history to have forced its way back onto the world stage after an interregnum.
“It didn’t happen with Greece, or India,” he says. “But China has a chance.”
Duong Trung Quoc，越南人大代表和杂志《过去与现在》编辑一说，”我认为中国不仅是越南的问题，而且是世界的问题。”
And that’s a problem, he contends, because China still thinks the way it used to back when it was on top.
“China thinks it is at the center. The conquerer. It wants to turn everybody else into its subordinates,” he says. Don’t believe China, Duong says, when it appears to be playing nice. It’s a trap. The Vietnamese, he says, should know.
“After the war, the Vietnamese and the Americans could reconcile. Vietnam and France can reconcile. Veterans from both sides can sit down together and talk. Vietnamese and Chinese veterans hardly ever sit down together,” he says.
Why is this?
“The Vietnamese have had too much experience with the Chinese. The Vietnamese can’t trust the Chinese. We’ve had too much practice,” he adds.
Few in Vietnam’s government talk so openly about the perceived threat from their northern neighbor. They’re wary of igniting more protests, like those last year. And Vietnam’s Communist Party still looks to China as a model of how to keep an authoritarian state in power in the Internet age. But anti-Chinese sentiment among ordinary Vietnamese continues to grow.
Vo Cao Loi lives about a mile from the South China Sea — which the Vietnamese simply call the East Sea — in the central Vietnam city of Danang, where the first U.S. combat troops landed in 1965.
He says he’s a survivor of a massacre next to My Lai, one that claimed 97 lives, including his mother. He no longer considers the Americans enemies, but rather as friends. Allies, even, against Vietnam’s longtime enemy. He believes the Chinese have taken something that belongs to Vietnam.
Vo Cao Lo生活在越南中部岘港市距南中国海（越南称东海）约一英里的地方。岘港，在1965年，第一支美国作战部队于此登陆。
“The Spratly and Paracels (islands) are still partly occupied,” he says. “Of course at some point we have to put our differences aside, but we have to get those islands back first. Because it belongs to our ancestors.”
It doesn’t take him long to acknowledge that probably won’t happen.
“They want to spread their control. They will never give back what they took,” he adds. “Vietnam wants to take it back, but the Chinese are strong. So our struggle will last a long time. How long? I can’t tell.”
Wunder Warthawg • 22 days ago
This edited post will not use the words “war criminals” or “overweight” or “criminal”.The main thing it’s necessary to avoid when discussing Vietnamese affairs is the mindless slaughter this (edited) country continued at a rate that included dropping more than 2 times bomb tonnage than all the allies used in all of WW2 along with poisoning their people, and their land.Ending of course with a retreat to the fiction of Rambo and beginning equally fatuous and (edited)) wars in the Middle East.
Isisparadigm-》Wunder Warthawg • 10 days ago
We can cure Rambo by changing what we do for fun and work.
Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
“The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Mandarin.”
I think the writer meant Chinese characters. Mandarin is a dialect. Other dialects, as well as other languages, also use the Chinese characters. Chinese is comparable to Latin. It was used by scholars and officials.
“在河内的文庙是一个很好的例子。越南国王Ly TháNH TôNG 1070建造以供奉中国哲学家孔子。墙壁上的教导都是用普通话写的。”
Guest-》Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
Absolutely correct, but Mandarin is very complex and the writer is evidently still trying to master the English language: “The Obama Adminstration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted in part with the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has it’s Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.”
For the gazillionth time, Journalsists: “it’s” means “it is!” The possessive of “it” is “its!”
没错，不过普通话非常复杂，而且这个作者还在试图掌握英语中。”The Obama Adminstration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted in part with the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has it’s Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.”为了gazillionth time，这一句中it’s实际为 it is，正确的词语应该是its
Nick B -》 guesst • 10 days ago
Grammatik macht frei!
But as a fellow grammar Nazi I agree. Proof your writing.
Clovis Sangrail -》 guesst • 10 days ago
“It’s” is also a contraction of “it has,” e.g. in “It’s been a long time.”
It’s也可以是”it has,”以及”It’s been a long time.”
Cassandra E Schmidt -》guesst • 10 days ago
Also, I don’t know any country referred to as Franch. It is a cross between France and the French. Seems this article was a bit rushed.
同样，我不知道哪里有个叫“Franch”的国家，这似乎是France 和 French的杂交。这篇文章可能是篇急就章。
LuxAurumque -》 Cassandra E Schmidt • 10 days ago
In Breaking Bad, “” was a new dipping sauce flavor combining French and Ranch dressing.
在Breaking Bad，“ Franch”是一种浸渍沙拉，是法国沙拉和牧场沙拉（French and Ranch dressing）的结合。
Clovis Sangrail -》 LuxAurumque • 10 days ago
Franch sauce, with a defibrillator chaser. Num num!
“ Franch”沙拉，带着defibrillator chaser，Num num
freedumb sings -》 guesst • 10 days ago
Its not “gazillion” but “bazillion” from the brazilnut tree meaning many seeds
hoang nguyen -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 9 days ago
Technically it’s not Chinese but Classical Chinese or chữ Nho in Vietnamese. Even modern Chinese will find the writings hard to decipher.
Peter Melzer -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
The shame is that a French monk in the early 19th century introduced an alphabet which replaced Vietnamese ideographic writing. As a result only some Vietnamese scholars are able to read old texts and know about pre-French history from their own country’s perspective.
Clovis Sangrail -》 Peter Melzer • 10 days ago
The same thing is true in Turkey, which replaced the Arabic alphabet with Roman 80 years ago. Many years ago, I spent an afternoon at the Museum of Turkish and Islamic Art in Istanbul and was admiring an ebony tablet with an inscription in Arabic characters inlaid in the tablet in mother of pearl. A Turkish student who wanted to practice his English attached himself to me and struck up a conversation with “I wonder what it is?” I said that it was obviously a poem. I think he was a bit irritated that a frenk (“European”) like me would presume to make a pronouncement about his culture that he wasn’t able to make himself. His voice rose as he asked me how I could possibly know that. I said that every other line ended in the same group of characters; in short, it rhymed. He triumphantly jabbed his index finger at the right-hand margin, showing me that what I had said wasn’t true. Indeed, there was no repetitive pattern to be seen on the right-hand side of the text. I am sure he thought he had scored a nakaut (“knockout”), and I let him enjoy his imaginary victory, not pointing out to him that Arabic is written from right to left. He was pointing at the wrong side of the tablet. In any case, there is nothing stopping the Vietnamese from transcribing their ancient texts into the modern orthographic system.
jellybeanies-》 Clovis Sangrail • 10 days ago
South Korea has been doing that in recent decades, but there is that pesky problem of homophones. And, sure, usually you can tell the meaning from context, but sometimes you need to be precise. When transcribing legislation written in Chinese characters, for example, you don’t want to be introducing uncertainty into the transcription.
Peter Melzer s-》 Clovis Sangrail • 10 days ago
Very few people seem to be able to do that and their number is dwindling.
hoang nguyen Peter Melzer • 9 days ago
Romanized Vietnamese (chữ Quốc-ngữ) was not invented by a 19th century French monk. It came into being in the 17th century as a result of Portuguese missionaries. The first dictionary was indeed put to print by a Frenchman, Alexandre de Rhodes (Đắc-lộ in Vietnamese) in 1651 but the text was a trilingual Vietnamese-Portuguese-Latin compendium, testifying to the Portuguese origin. Romanized Vietnamese reflects this partly in orthography.
罗马化越南字不是19世纪法国传教士的发明。而是产于17世纪的葡萄牙修士。第一本字典是由法国人Alexandre de Rhodes (Đắc-lộ in Vietnamese) 在 1651年印刷的。但是文本有着三种语言越南语-葡萄牙语-拉丁语的纲要，这体现了其葡萄牙来源。罗马化越南字在正字法中部分反映了这一点。
Peter Melzer -》 hoang nguyen • 8 days ago
Thanks for the enlightenment.
Henry Nguyen -》 Peter Melzer • 9 days ago
It’s partially true that only few Vietnamese scholars are able read old texts but knowledge of pre-French history can be obtained by with translated versions and verified with original versions where necessary. The bigger problem for Vietnamese historians are destroyed ancient records by Chinese conquerors, thus depended heavily on Chinese documents and more modern original records are located in France.
Wanderer Cloud -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 20 days ago
Yes, you are correct. The wall was written to honor Confucius and is inConfucian script which itself is a writing system, no less! The Vietnamese at the time using their own Chinese derivative writing system :
Seasonya • 12 days ago
“Vietnam’s war with the U.S. lasted just a decade”
The US waged war against Vietnam- not the other way around. Basic history NPR
loverpoint -》 seasonya • 21 days ago
The USA did not declare war on Vietnam , the USA took the side of South Vietnam in a Civil War. The South had been supported by the French in what was considered a war against Communism .
Kevin Cronin -》 loverpoint • 10 days ago
Not quite correct….The French did not support the South. The area was a colonial possession of France. After WWII the French tried to reestablish control but too weak. The US supported the French but to no avail….the 1954 Geneva accords divided Vietnam with a later date of reunification, the rest as they say is history.
I know this will come off as snotty…but there no reason to be wrong here….there is a lot of correct history out there….you and the two posted up need to look it up.
I know this will come off as snotty…but there no reason to be wrong here….there is a lot of correct history out there….you and the two posted up need to look it up.（求助，不太明白）
seasonya -》 loverpoint -》• 21 days ago
The south was propped up with a western backed dictator whom the people rejected hence the need for MASSIVE US military interference to stem the will of the Vietnam people
A R • 22 days ago
Wow, what a brutal 20th century the Vietnamese had endured. The French, then the Japanese, then the French again, then the Americans, then the Cambodians, then the Chinese. Much respect for their resilience and perseverance in the face of foreign interventionists.
higgs merino -》 A R • 22 days ago
“You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.”
~Ho Chi Minh
Bajie Zhu -》 higgs merino •1 2 days ago
Turned out the kill ration was more like 40 to 1.
higgs merino -》 Bajie Zhu • 12 days ago
And they still win.
Run4Life •22 days ago
Americans are so self-centered to think that the US is the center of Universe and that no one else’s history or actions matter.
Nevoigt • 21days ago
Is this some sort of feel good article designed to make us forget we killed 2 million Vietnamese who were no threat to us, carpet bombed their developing cities and poisoned their people, food supplies and forests?
Roger Chavez -》 Nevoigt • 21 days ago
Feel good piece? Try outright propaganda piece, part of Obama’s “Pivot to Asia” to include outright military threats.
moebius2249 -》 Nevoigt • 22 days ago
Unlike us, they largely seem to be over it.
thanh nguyen -》 moebius2249 • 22 days ago
Technically, the people of Vietnam learned their lessons after the U.S. left. For the people who helped the North Vietnamese commies during the war, they realized that they were fooled the whole time by the North Vietnamese Commies. After the war, the North commies show their true colors and turned out worst than they thought. For next 20 years after 1975. People lived in hell and the country went backward. The country was pretty much like North Korea today.
Roger Chavez -》 thanh nguyen • 21 days ago
The same North Korea that suffered a million or more deaths in three years due to US bombing? That North Korea?
Shuami -》 thanh nguyen • 21 days ago
“The country was pretty much like North Korea today.”
That’s stretching it a tad little bit, don’t you think? You guys are kind of like the Cuban exiles in Florida, how they regard Castro’s Cuba.
Nevoigt -》 thanh nguyen • 22 days ago
tragically none of our business
hoang nguyen Nevoigt • 21 days ago
Surely Syria, Libya, Rwanda, Bosnia, Germany… are “none of our business” either but they were/are.
Sayaka Soreson • 22 days ago
The Vietnamese are among the best fighters on the planet. Any Vietnam veteran will tell you that, including Colin Powell. And, I am sure the Chinese would agree, since they fought against them too. Vietnam sure as come up in the world since 1975. Say what you will about the past and their government, (ours certainly isn’t any better), but they are resilient people, and some of the best neighbors to have.
isisparadigm -》 Sayaka Soreson • 22 days ago
Some Vietnam vets did not shoot the enemy, but tried to avoid conflict. Colin Powell was fooled about weapons of mass destruction. He came on ABC after his service to report on Bush2 lies.
Peter Melzer • 22 days ago
One cause for the fading recollections of the American War is that the vast majority of Vietnam’s populace today was born after that war ended, having no own memories of that time.
Americans came and went. China will always remain Vietnam’s neighbor.
Art Aficionado -》 Peter Melzer • 12 days ago
The bigger issue is one decade vs. many. China has become a regional bully.
Peter Melzer -》 Art Aficionado • 12 days ago
The way China’s foreign policies were explained to me when I asked why the regime cares so much about controlling the pile of rocks that is Tibet, Han Chinese possess a rigid preconception of what territories belong to their empire. Any leadership, Communist or otherwise, would be perceived as weak at home, if it were to let go of these territories. Vietnam has been part of China off and on over thousands of years. The Chinese stance has not changed.
Wanderer Cloud -》Peter Melzer • 12 days ago
A bully neighbor as that . The young Vietnamese all want to study in the US. The commie propaganda used to make the kid learn a poem crying for the passing of Stalin. now the joke in Vietnam is : The grandfather cry for Stalin, the father cry for Ho chi minh , now the kids cry for Micheal Jackson!
Frank Vartuli • 12 days ago
Does anyone remember the motive for the Vietnam war? It was based on the “domino theory” of countries over there converting to communism one by one. The gear being the countries would all act s one against US interests. This article proves that as false as did the quick retreat of the Chinese after an armistice was declared in Korea. We are still there however making reunification impossible. This article is an obvious propaganda piece to try to put that gross war crime that was the Vietnam War in a good light.. 3 million Vietnamese died along with 56,000 US young men and women in that failed attempt to replace France as the new colonial ruler. Some Vietnamese are still suffering the legacy of agent orange but cannot get a nickel in indemnity from our GOV.
kurtinco -》 Frank Vartuli • 18 days ago
I think you’re so focused on what the US has done wrong that you’ve completely missed the main themes of this article: 1. Vietnam and the US were able to settle their differences, and 2. The Chinese are on the move once again.
It is interesting to note that the Vietnamese culture has a very long memory just as many say the same thing about the Chinese. It is also interesting to note that for all the harm, death and destruction we caused in Vietnam, we are harder on ourselves for it than they are on us and that when the chips are down, they still view China with a far more weary eye than they do the US. That has to count for something significant.
M D-》 Frank Vartuli • 18 days ago
North Korea, Cambodia (at one point), Vietnam and Laos. It wasn’t exactly without merit. It just turns out that economics is a much less expensive way to deal with it.
Clovis Sangrail-》 Frank Vartuli • 18 days ago
The domino theory was revived when the Bush administration failed to produce any evidence of the existence of WMD in Iraq. Then the invasion of Iraq was re-purposed: the removal of Saddam meant that democracy had been introduced into Iraq, and soon every other authoritarian regime in the Middle East would follow suit. Proof of this reverse domino theory was provided by the Arab spring, which introduced democracy to a number of Arab…no wait…Tunisia. For the moment, anyway.
charles labry -》 Frank Vartuli • 19 days ago
Yes. The US was trying stop to Communist aggression. Remember that Communist North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam, a struggling democracy. We had a defense treaty with South Vietnam, the SEATO agreement, so we were obligated to help them.
Logan Fernandez -》 charles labry • 18 days ago
“Remember that Communist North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam, a struggling democracy.”
What!?!?! A struggling democracy!?! South Vietnam was never a democracy, and never had a real election…ever. Ever.
Diem, the first president of “South Vietnam” killed almost 12K people that might challenge his authority. He then practically forced Catholicism on a nation that was 70-90% Buddhist. The Catholic church became the largest private landowner in the South despite the small minority of Catholics in the region. Villages that didn’t convert to Catholicism were largely left without protection or the people forced out for Catholic residents.
It became so bad that Buddhist monks set themselves on fire in protest. I repeat… they..set…themselves…on fire. This led to over 1400 monks being arrested. and many Buddhist temples and property being destroyed . This caused students to boycott classes in High School and the University in Saigon. Over 1000 students were arrested and sent to “re-education” camps.
The “North” didn’t have to send that many men before American got involved. After Diem, plenty of “Southern” Vietnamese joined the NLF (also known as Viet Cong) and fought and rose up with weapons supplied by Hanoi.
No worries,though. America always has an amazing plan “to help people” that don’t really want our help. America realized it looked bad propping up someone who was failing to maintain order in the South with his strict, anti-deomcratice, anti-Buddhist polices… so the CIA sanctioned and backed a coupe that lead to his murder (America couldn’t wait for an election to get him out..because it wasn’t a democracy). This then started a chain of coupes and leadership changes in the South. It was never stable. And it was NEVER a democracy…ever. No leader of “Southern” Vietnam was ever truly elected.
There was no “good side” in this conflict. It was a nation divided into two by foreign powers. All nations should have stayed out of this internal conflict. But America couldn’t stand the fact that one side was Communist. That was the ONLY reason for America entering Vietnam. Even if the South had discriminatory policies and no real democracy, at least they weren’t Communist. Because the world was just dominoes waiting to fall.. 50K dead Americans based on a “domino theory”.
hoang nguyen-》 Logan Fernandez • 18 days ago
That detracts nothing from the N Vietnam’s aggression. Furthermore The North’s record of brutality with its own purges, land reforms, and mass executions gave it no right to dictate to others. The war clearly culminated at gunpoint, not one of choice for the Southerners. The mass exodus of refugees and boat people, both in 1954 when the communist came to power in the North (1 million fled south) and in 1975 (2 millions escaped, lasting into the late 1980s) spoke for themselves. South Vietnam was flawed and far from perfect but of those 2 regimes, the people clearly voted with their feet.
You are also wrong to say that the North did not send men until the US got involved. The “National Liberation Front” fronted by the communists announced its agenda 1960 to topple the government of South Vietnam. The US came in 1964.
Lastly the Domino Theory did come true partlỵ. Both Laos and Cambodia fell to the communists in 1975. The rest of SEA did not but Vietnam was not a simple case of internecine conflict.
Logan Fernandez-》 hoang nguyen • 19 days ago
“The war clearly culminated at gunpoint, not one of choice for the Southerners.”
Mostly because the Southern’s knew they were outgunned and outnumbered. If Diem thought he could win an all out war with an invasion of the North, he would have done it in a heart beat. He was already cracking down on Buddhists very hard, killed over 12k of his “opponents”, and wouldn’t have thought twice of invading the North and slaughtering anyone he thought supported the Communist cause if he had the military and support. No matter who won this war, people were going to be slaughtered.
“You are also wrong to say that the North did not send men until the US
got involved. The “National Liberation Front” fronted by the communists
announced its agenda 1960 to topple the government of South Vietnam. The
US came in 1964. ”
I said they didn’t send many men at first. And I said they used the NLF before US involvement. For some reason you are equating the NLF to be all from the North. That is not true. The majority of the NLF were Southern Vietnamese sympathetic to Hanoi (which quickly gathered support after Diem, and one reason why the US had to sanction a coupe/murder of the South government). Hanoi tried to keep as many of their own actual soldiers North to prepare and train for the all out war. Hanoi tried using the NLF (Again, mostly Southern Vietnamese) to do a lot of the work for them before an all out war.
“. The mass exodus of refugees and boat people, both in 1954 when the communist came to power in the North (1 million fled south)”
Because they could. America and other foreign powers offered their Navy to transport people South and booster Diem. No one offered to transport anyone North. They all had to leave by foot, and there is was no accurate number of how many went North because of this. With how well bolstered and supported the NLF was in the South, the South obviously had plenty of Hanoi supporters that may have gone North if a Navy ship offered safe passage.
Again, I’m not a North supporter. I don’t like EITHER regime, and don’t think either was worth killing 50K of our own to support. Anytime you have to “support” a government by having the CIA sanction a COUPE/Murder of the acting “president”, then you know you aren’t supporting a good government, and have no business trying to prop it up. Vietnam should not have been touched at all by foreign powers.
Also, the domino theory states that if we allow a country to become communist, then other countries will be communist on their own will just because they are next to it. Australia, Japan, Indonesia, the Philippines.. all of them were suppose to fall to communism after Vietnam. We equated this with the Soviet Union gaining a sphere of influence… which is bogus since the Asian countries didn’t really care for the Soviets. All if it was a bogus premise to go to war.
hoang nguyen-》 Logan Fernandez • 18 days ago
The NFL as seen after 1975 were all eliminated from power by Hanoi. The NFL is an arm of the North.
There were elements in the South that wanted peace but none survived 1976 as the North took control. It was a fictive state.
Logan Fernandez-》 hoang nguyen • 18 days ago
I don’t think you and I disagreeing. Yes..the NLF was an arm of Hanoi…made up of mostly Southern Vietnamese who wanted to rise up against the Southern government. The people fighting the US/South weren’t just the North. A huge amount were Southern Vietnamese (That sided and aided Hanoi) that no longer wanted to be ruled by colonial powers or their puppet governments that arrested and destroyed Buddhists, sent protesters to “re-education” camps, gave all housing to the minority Catholics, or just flat imprisoned/killed anyone that stood in the government’s way..
And neither regime truly wanted two Vietnams living peacefully. Whoever won the war was going to assimilate the other side in a blood bathe and “re-education” camps. Those who wanted peace only had the option to leave. If the South won, and invaded the North..China and the US would have seen a mass amount of North Vietnamese refugees as well. There wasn’t a “good side” in this war. Only one that wasn’t Communist, which was good enough for the US to get involved.
Wunder Warthawg-》 hoang nguyen • 19 days ago
Missing the small details that there never was a South Vietnam, that the majority of migrants who voted with their feet were Catholic, connected to the French, or Chinese merchants . In addition the fictional south Vietnam never had a popular military or even a tax paying base or stable leadership tha t was anything more than puppets ingratiated with the CIA.
hoang nguyen -》 Wunder Warthawg • 18 days ago
It is exactly the intolerance in the North of any minority rights, if you call it that, which forced people to flee. The viability of the South along with its flaws do nothing to justify the North’s action. It was consistently the case that with each offensive launched by the communists, 1954, 1968, 19722, 1975 the people streamed south, away from the “liberators” until they had nowhere to go but to sea. If they were on the payroll of the CIA, the Vietnamese refugees in America would be super-flushed with funds and pensions of their operative days.
Wunder Warthawg-》 hoang nguyen • 19 days ago
The rights of French collaborators and Catholics associated with them didn’t count for much nor did wealthy landowners who enslaved their own people.
Charina Bottae -》 charles labry • 21 days ago
Why though? Why did we have a defense treaty with South Vietnam? What could the US possibly have hoped to gain from that arrangement other than a hopelessly weak, corrupt government, a massive liability and black sheep in the region that we would have been obliged to protect into eternity?
To much of our view on Vietnam’s history boils down to “North Vietnam invades South because they’re evil!” and it ignores centuries of historical context or the actual rationale behind NV’s actions.
I am *NOT* saying that the Communist Vietnamese were the good guys or the protagonists, but we need to look at these issues with a bit more nuance.
Wunder Warthawg -》 Frank Vartuli • 21 days ago
When a big fat war criminal country like the US wants a little action it learned to stay away from remembering the devastation it caused , never admit to its crimes, and be very sure it never lets itself look back or see itself in the mirror. Of course , in the meantime, it decays faster than a worm on a sidewalk on a hot summer day.
Fisherguy -》 Frank Vartuli • 21 days ago
It was their civil war, and we jumped into it. And Henry Kissinger still isn’t in prison….
jellybeanies • 20 days ago
A missing piece of vital information is that Vietnam was part of China for a thousand years. And part of Vietnam’s founding story as an independent nation is that mythologised war against the Chinese one thousand years ago.
Think about how the concept of “freedom” birthed during the American Revolution resonates throughout American society today. Then take that fervour, replace freedom with “opposing China,” add several hundred years of embellishment and cultural absorption, and there you have it. As a foundation of a national identity, this is Moses-leading-the-Jews-of-out-Egypt type stuff.
Wanderer Cloud -》 jellybeanies • 20 days ago
You are completely ignorance in Vietnamese history. Vietnam was never “part of China ” China was always try to invade and colony but kicked out by the Vietnamese. by the way
Lý Thánh Tông like many Vietnamese king, he
Defeat of the Chinese ( Song period ) invaders :
你完全不懂越南历史，越南从来不是中国的一部分，中国一直企图入侵和殖民越南然而被越南人赶了出去。另外Lý Thánh Tông就像许多越南国王一样，他打败了宋朝侵略者。
Surethingbob -》 Wanderer Cloud • 20 days ago
Actually, technically it was. You may be arguing semantics, but Vietnam was technically a province of China for most of the period from 111 BC to 939 AD (many people would argue being a province qualifies as being part of). After that, it was no longer a province but simply a tributary state. Of course, Vietnam at the time was a lot smaller and hadn’t expanded southward yet.
实际上，从技术层面上它是。你也许认为这只是词面上，然而越南人在111 BC to 939 AD中的绝大多数时间里都是中国的一个省（许多人认为他只是一个省的一部分）。在这之后不再是省，但是是藩属国。当然，这时候的越南比现在小得多，还没有向南方扩张。
Wanderer Cloud -》 Surethingbob • 19 days ago
Historically, there is no China until Qin Shi Huang
arlenesimmins -》 Wanderer Cloud • 20 days ago
America and China have some things in common, two powerful nations having their way with smaller weaker nations in the region such as Latin America and SE Asia. You might say China is the “Gringo” of the East.
isisparadigm • 21 days ago
The deep involvement of the USA in Vietnam started in 1954 with the funding of the French war effort. The French effort was part of the colonial movement which started in the 1600’s in some places. This is a known history of the world. If We look back the US refused to sign the peace agreements the rest of the world did and the Vietnam conflict continued with USA sending military “advisers” and finally launched a bombing campaign larger than that of WW2. The war in 1979 was brief and was the Chinese response (home land security)to one of the few successful military campaigns in the history of the world. By successful I mean that newly United Vietnam’s effort to stop the killing by the forces in Cambodia which where a result of the USA effort to prevent a united Vietnam. The US had a secret war in Laos and Cambodia and destabilized their government and radicals filled the void. Like now the USA invasion only intensified the conflict in the areas. One problem we have is The Monroe Doctrine which allows our government to front for big business in managing the world economy. China and the US supply 40% of the worlds CO2 and even with California on broad the World is going to pass the 2 degree Climate Increase. There is a different History on these events which is less promoted and the original investigative reporters and the leaders from the Students for a Democratic Society should be heard. I am old enough to have sorted through the various meanings of the eras “Free Fire” zones. It is time to realize that human behavior goes Psycho in intense competition and to move our educational systems into areas of supported learning. I think healing music, mediation, exercise and yoga are much better than being a fan. Please do not blame the soldiers, our leaders take us to these “states of mind” and they need to do a better job. Thanks for the space.
Wunder Warthawg-》 isisparadigm • 19 days ago
It doesn’t hurt to breathe a little fire now and then.
vibrato • 21 days ago
How odd that the war that had such a profound affect on America seems to have had nowhere near the same impact on Vietnam. What folly for the U.S. it was…
isisparadigm -》 vibrato • 21 days ago
Vietnam is still suffering from unexploded bombs and mines. There are museums where the agent orange babies are still on display and we need to be critical of some corporate stories. Wall Street supported Bush2’s invasion. Vietnam calls the war the American war. Now look at your clothing labels and then try to find out how much the workers are paid and if they have safe work conditions
moebius2249-》 vibrato • 21 days ago
Vietnam was a fall from innocence for the U.S. For them it appears to be one of many wars.
charles labry-》 vibrato • 21 days ago
Because half of the country knows we were there trying to help them.
TheDude1244 -》 charles labry • 21 days ago
Help? We had be taught that after Australia we would be next.
higgs merino -》 TheDude1244 • 21 days ago
Still gotta thank Boy Geo for keeping the Viet Cong out of Texas. It worked.
Wunder Warthawg-》 vibrato • 21 days ago
Actually it’s called an American war crime.
Run4Life -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
The Frightened Vietnamese Kid Who Became A U.S. Army General
vibrato-》 Wunder Warthawg • 20 days ago
The opposition to the Vietnam War in the United States was largely based on the view by many, particularly young people, that the war was immoral. I strongly share this view. Further, the war was based on a blindly foolish foreign policy. Ironically, the US had the opportunity to become an ally of Ho Chi Minh when he came to he U.S. for help in the 50’s. But we were so blinded by the Red Scare that we refused, not seeing that he was more nationalist than communist.
Despite the horrors of that war, Vietnam seems to have recovered, becoming a stable country with a growing economy. (This is my impression, but if I’m wrong I’ll admit it.) Whereas it seems to me that something in America died as a result of that war, and we have never recovered from it. Some say innocence, but I think that it was something more. There is a kind of justice in that, but it is a bitter justice. And it doesn’t seem to have given us insight into the folly of our arrogance and our simplistic view of the world, as demonstrated by the even more mind-bogglingly foolish foreign policy of the G. W. Bush years.
There seems to be a lot of personal pain behind your posts and I’m sorry for that. But if Vietnam can put the war largely behind it, perhaps the U.S. should find a way to do so as well. But with lessons finally learned.
Wunder Warthawg -》 vibrato • 20 days ago
Very thoughtful but change that pain to deep-seated anger and an unwillingness to suffer war mongering fools …ever or silently
Roger Chavez -》 vibrato • 20 days ago
Do you really believe what you just wrote? We aren’t getting the whole story.
vibrato Roger Chavez • 20 days ago
Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
The main thing it’s necessary to avoid when discussing Vietnamese affairs is the mindless slaughter this overweight, ignorant country continued at a rate that included dropping more than 2 times the bomb tonnage than all the allies used in all of WW2 along with poisoning their people, and their land.Ending of course with a retreat to the fiction of Rambo and beginning equally fatuous and criminal wars in the Middle East.
isisparadigm-》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
Look back at the Vietnam soldiers (on line). What do we see? Cigs in their head bands. That should tell us something too.
brian woo • 21 days ago
No mentioning how many Chinese Vietnamese were forced to flee?
Bajie Zhu • 11 days ago
This is plain propaganda. The Chinese over millennia likely killed fewer Vietnamese than the 6 years of the American Vietnam War.
IF indeed it were true that the Vietnamese cannot resolve their feelings towards the Chinese, it is the fault of the Vietnamese government. Life is about choices. It is not likely that Vietnam will get the long end of the stick any time soon as against an ascending China. Does Vietnam truly expect to come out ahead disputing the South China Sea territorial claims? First casualty would be all the Chinese investments instead going to neighbors and bypassing Vietnam. Rational leaders would rationally lead their people towards working constructively with China, and benefiting from the new institutions such as AIIB and the Silk Road projects. The opportunity is there for all to set aside disputes, and seek to make the lives of the common people richer first.
Hien Nguyen • 15 days ago
Noth Vietnam invaded South Vietnam violated Paris Peace accord in 1973. Le Duan said: “”We” fought the South was for China and Russia”. Meant North Vietnam has been China and Russia’s mercenary army using “united country” as propaganda. Viet Commies used it to stay in power. Ho Chi Minh was a number 7th war criminal in the world.
Cat’s Paw • 19 days ago
Poor Vietnam, served as the proxy battle field between U.S. and U.S.S.R. … That ought to be enough. Could they wind up serving as a proxy battle between U.S. and China? That would be just – too – much!
W Li • 20 days ago
To contain China, so the US is in the mood to court Vietnam now? It’s so funny, US once courted China for the almost same reason of containment, but the aim was to cut off Vietnam. Here is one problem: the nations of SE Asia either hate Vietnam, like Cambodian and Laos, since Viet always tried to invaded and to dominate in that area historically, or dislike Vietnam like Thailand, Singapore and Malaysia. A pivot to Vietnam will push some of them to further alight on China. The recent ASEAN conference showed Vietnam have few friends.
Kevin Cronin-》 W Li • 19 days ago
Historically? How far back is your history? Khmer Empire lasted about 6 hundred years and consisted of parts of Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos and Thailand. North Vietnam was part of the Chinese Tang Dynasty.
Wanderer Cloud-》 W Li • 19 days ago
Enemy of our enemy is our friend. Even when China was ruled by the mighty mongol and try to push south (Domino isn’t it?), they was stop by Vietnam :
Roger Chavez • 20 days ago
NPR, National Propaganda Radio for the people who think they are well informed. Instead of this of this typical NPR fluff piece, open your eyes with this: http://www.wsws.org/en/article…
thanh nguyen • 21 days ago
For centuries, the Chinese invaders have never stopped conquering Vietnam. It’s in their blood and brain. When you live next to a neighbor who always want to rob your house and kill your family. What would you do? what kind of a neighbor is that?
W Li-》 thanh nguyen • 20 days ago
Historically China was requested to discipline Vietnam by it’s protected states in the SE Asia, Vietnam was bully itself to its neighbors.
kwayzywabbit • 21 days ago
War is costly, and the PRC paid for all the ammo during the first Indochina war, as well as half of the second. How can anyone ask China not to require payment, or respect from Vietnam? If you cannot pay for every bullet with a kilo of rice, you have make that up with something else, such as land and dignity.
moebius2249-》 kwayzywabbit • 21 days ago
So China can take whatever it wants from Vietnam?
kwayzywabbit -》 moebius2249 • 21 days ago
yes, and they did, and are taking, and will take more.
moebius2249-》 kwayzywabbit • 21 days ago
Just wanted to clarify that you’re indeed an authoritarian.
kwayzywabbit -》 moebius2249 • 21 days ago
no, not at all. nor do i claim to be an expert on the subject. just saying that if you lay with dogs, don’t be surprised if you get fleas. i do not think china is right, but the north vietnamese did indeed eat the scraps off the chinese table, now they have to find a way to pay back what their master demands. if no payment is made, the chinese will take the land or whatever they want, including the dignity of a nation. ciao!
moebius2249 • 21 days ago
Vietnam is currently seeking military ties with the U.S.
Wanderer Cloud • 21 days ago
This article shows the Domino doctrine is tragically flaw, the US involved in Vietnam to prevent the red China take over South East Asia, but right after the War end, it was the red Vietnam and the red China fighting each other, not to mention Khmer rouge .
isisparadigm -》 Wanderer Cloud • 21 days ago
The Domino Doctrine and Weapons of mass destruction should be examined in the same segment.
Wanderer Cloud -》 isisparadigm • 19 days ago
I think with all the money spent, the US could have just bought the North Vietnam
LuxAurumque • 21 days ago
China’s Peaceful Rise.
Wunder Warthawg-》 LuxAurumque • 21 days ago
The Vietnamese have been stopping China for 2000 years but we called them a domino.
Wanderer Cloud-》 LuxAurumque • 19 days ago
That is a ruse.
Mark This • 21 days ago
They fought China immediately after America left
Wunder Warthawg -》 Mark This • 21 days ago
They continued their 2000 year old war to keep China out of their country after they defeated the Americans and their puppet government.
Mike Burton • 21 days ago
Great article, the whole truth about the relationship between China and Vietnam. The truth that insured our defeat in the Vietnam War. Hanoi’s overwhelming concern was to have a unified Vietnam so that it could stand up against Chinese conquest. We stood boldly in the path of that goal and got run over. We made ourselves their enemy, but they knew we would not be around for long so they never took their eyes off their real enemy, China, and they still haven’t. Sitting on my little intelligence gathering perch at Ramasun Station in Thailand I had figured this out by 1969, and so had some others, but LBJ and Bobby MacNamara stayed resolutely on the wrong page.
好文章，反映了中越的真实关系。真相是，确定我们将在越战失败后，河内关心的问题是组建统一的越南以抵抗中国的要求。我们冒失地站在这一目标前面，并且被碾了过去。我们使自己成为他们的敌人，但他们知道我们不可能永远在此，所以他们的目光一直没有离开他们的真正敌人—中国。在他们还没有和中国决裂之前，1969年我在泰国Ramasun的情报收集小站的时候就已经想通了这一点，还有其他人也和我有相同看法，但是LBJ和 Bobby MacNamara他们全都站在错误的一边。
isisparadigm-》 Mike Burton • 21 days ago
I think MacNamara was the worse case. The debate on Vietnam even had God take a side. A lot of people worked making ammo and weapons. The new weapons industry has placed their factories in key places and In Bush2’s war we saw support from Wall Street. I do not know if Wall Street was as active in supporting Vietnam as they where for Bush but I do know Nixon had to go off the gold standard to pay for Vietnam. I think it is sad that we can produce for war but do not have a New Deal for nature and climate change.
Wunder Warthawg-》 Mike Burton • 21 days ago
Excellent summary of how a big ,fat, ignorant war criminal country got its tail kicked, went home to watch Rambo, and blinded itself to its war crimes.
higgs merino -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
Then repeat in 2001, 2003….same acting characters (Powell) So few know his connection to My Lai, decades later not a lesson learned in whole the bunch.
isisparadigm -》 higgs merino • 21 days ago
I have the “General’s War” which came out for the 1990’s middle east war and was written by a Marine Corp General. The book featured Powell.
TheDude1244-》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
Southeastern Asian politics and Communist international politics were absolutely bizarre. I STRONGLY recommend a book titled “Why Vietnam Invaded Cambodia”, as it does an excellent job covering this topic in detail. Politics and rationale in the communist world were strange almost beyond comprehension, and I think its important that more people understand how complicated these issues can be in the real world. The fact that we aligned ourselves with China instead of the USSR during the cold war was one of the stranger decisions that we’ve made.
The entire Sino-Soviet split was the result of a schism in the interpretations of the “Holy Scripture” of Marx, with China sticking to an extremely close, literal interpretation of the Communist Manifesto and the USSR adopting a more lenient, moderate approach and recognized that a direct confrontation with a nuclear-armed USA was probably not a good idea. Why we sided with China on this one I have no idea, but the conflicts between Vietnam, China, and Cambodia were all a direct result of this split.
isisparadigm-》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
Reagan was more aggressive and a “million” people marched on Washington to try to get him to tone down. People should not have to die for other people’s faith. Reagan became popular after he was President and that too involved some of the faithful.
LarrySena -》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
Just my opinion, but it could be due to the alliances made during WWII. In the past, the USA flip-flopped between allying with Japan and China. By the time 1941 arrived, Japan was the imperialist “enemy”, and China was the “ally”. The USSR had already become a danger to the capitalistic West.
Roosevelt and Truman knew that the USSR wanted Eastern Europe….perhaps all of Europe. They saw Stalin and the Soviets as the greatest threat to the West – not China and its future plans.
Charina Bottae -》 LarrySena • 21 days ago
That was true for the 40’s and early 50’s, but by the time that China and the USSR officially split the situation had changed dramatically. China actually become more belligerent and openly threatening to the west than the Soviet Union was.
LarrySena-》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
That may be true, but the US-USSR feud had taken on a life of its own by then. The Russians got the A-Bomb, the H-Bomb, and then they launched Sputnik in 1957. The Arms/Space Race was officially ON. Then came Cuba and the Bay of Pigs disaster.
The importance of Sputnik cannot be underestimated. Once it was known that the Russians had put devices in orbit, the Red Scare grew astronomically (pun intended!).
isisparadigm-》 LarrySena • 21 days ago
Love the pun and the blog.
Wunder Warthawg-》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
So you’re trying to say a country as foolish and ignorant and self-blinded as the United States needs to stay home and keep its criminal wars and giant toy military where the sun doesn’t shine?
isisparadigm -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
I was hoping for the One payer system so the Political hopefuls would have something more important to do. It is also hard to beat the NFL and praying Football players when they crank up the war machine.
M D • 21 days ago
I would say the Chinese have played their pity card for the Japanese occupation in WWII, with their backing of the Khmer Rouge.
Charina Bottae-》 M D • 21 days ago
To be totally fair, the US also backed the Khmer Rouge because of our relationship with China at the time. It was terribly ironic because during the Sino-Soviet split, the US actually could and should have been closer friends with the USSR than with China, since China and their allies stuck with a much stricter, more literal interpretation of Marx than the USSR, eastern europe and Vietnam did.
Howard Johnson • 22 days ago
I wasn’t aware of their loss of 50,000 in a war with China in 1979. The Vietnamese hardly had a break between fighting the French, us, and then the Chinese.
Wunder Warthawg -》 Howard Johnson • 21 days ago
Male Kimp • 22 days ago
most of the people who would think the U.S. we pretty much killed off.
Mike Lieberman • 22 days ago
Chinese actions are not their version of a Monroe Doctrine as some seem to think. China’s view of its neighbors is humorless and dismissive. Arrogance is not an unfair description of the rhetoric and the actions of the middle kingdom towards its neighbors. The US pivot has been a little slow and unconvincing to those in the region. A recent opinion page cartoon in the Philippine Daily Inquirer showed Filipinos and the USA Navy as pipsqueaks being set upon by a huge China. Feelings in Vietnam toward China are very much as is described as in this piece. Chinese nationals are present in large numbers in Vietnam and their economic impact on the economy is large. At the same time there is great antipathy towards the Chinese in their midst. ASEAN, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, responses to China have been tepid due to fear of retributions. It’s a mess in the region and the threat of war is real.
中国的行动不是某些人想象的某种版本的门罗主义。中国对邻居的观念是轻视和粗鲁。对于中央王国对邻居的言辞和行动，傲慢这个评价不是不公正的。美国的重返亚洲有点慢，对这个地区来不够可信。近日的《Philippine Daily Inquire》一页漫画上，画着站在菲律宾和美国海军两个侏儒旁边是巨大的中国。越南对中国的感观也类似。有大量中国公民在越南，中国对越南的经济影响巨大，同时他们对中国有极大反感。东盟对中国一向不冷不热原因在于他们的恐惧，这是混乱的根源，而战争的威胁是实在的。
CharlieHebdo-》 Mike Lieberman • 22 days ago
Oh – I think “humourless, dismissive, arrogance” pretty much sums up the Monroe Doctrine too.
vtbikerider • 22 days ago
Not surprised by this at all. We keep thinking that China wants a war or something with the United States when in actuality what they want to do is be able to influence events right in their own backyard– a 21st century version of the Monroe Doctrine. Their military, especially their navy is spending more and more time at sea and their weapons procurement is focused on sea denial rather than sea control. If they can keep the USN out of the area or present a perceived reasonable threat to the USN then it’ll be easier to influence events. Are we really willing to go to war over those islands for the Philippines or Viet-Nam? As long as they give the perception that they are then the Chinese can “win” without firing a shot.
T Mur • 22 days ago
So would we join the Vietnamese in a war against China?
Wunder Warthawg -》 T Mur • 21 days ago
In case you don’t go into stores any more…we are now “Made in china”….they won.
higgs merino -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
“They don’t want to eat us for lunch, they just want to cook it.”
vibrato -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
At first glance, this would appear to be true, and yet, a few decades ago, it was “Made in Japan.”
Robert Walther-》 T Mur • 22 days ago
China has been losing a war with itself for 3000 years. Just wait a bit…
N G • 22 days ago
The US lost a great opportunity to crush China during the Korean War, after China’s intervention on the side of the murderous North Koreans. A few small tactical nuclear detonations, down the length of the Yalu River and Peking, would have destroyed the Chinese command and control areas and relieved the pressure on our forces who had driven the North Koreans out of democratic South Korea.
guesst-》 N G • 22 days ago
Sane Americans everywhere are ecstatic you weren’t in any position of command then.
N G-》 guesst • 21 days ago
Especially the one’s killed in Korea, huh!
Ron Shirtz-》 N G • 22 days ago
Absolutely insane. That was MacArthur plan. He disregarded his orders and his reckless advance to the Yalu river in freezing winter brought disaster on the UN and US forces in Korea. A six month war turned into a grueling 2 year one. Truman was right to bust him. Should have done it sooner.
N G-》 Ron Shirtz • 21 days ago
Really? His plan would have worked easily. He was right in trying to destroy the North Koreans. Mac was eccentric, but brilliant. Plus, look at the long term results of Truman’s command decision, China in ascendency and North Korea a virtual prison state. You’re so wrong and the proof is in the pudding.
Gary Isabusyguy -》 N G • 21 days ago
We could have never continued through NK to China because it would have brought USSR nukes into the picture
Much better to allow China to have its subservient border state and continue the march of global capitalism, which in case you haven’t noticed, has overwhelmed all nations
N G -》 Gary Isabusyguy • 21 days ago
We never would have had to enter China at all.
This comment was deleted.
N G Guest -》• 21 days ago
The results of Truman’s decision are still resonating today, and I hope you like them. Mac was right, as history has proven.
Ron Shirtz -》• N G • 21 days ago
So you think its ok for a general to be insubordinate to his CIC? That is the stuff military coups are made from.
N G-》 Ron Shirtz • 21 days ago
Certainly not. and again, as events have proven, Mac was right.
LarrySena -》 N G • 22 days ago
Humanity would be long extinct by now if world leaders thought like you do.
N G -》 LarrySena • 21 days ago
Nope, but the Chinese communist leadership would be. Millions of its citizens, not killed in Peking and in the Communist Army in Korea, would be alive also.
Gary Isabusyguy -》 N G • 21 days ago
That would have brought Russia in on the side of China and probably led to global nuclear disaster
As it was, Russia and China became foes
N G -》 Gary Isabusyguy • 21 days ago
Charina Bottae-》 N G • 21 days ago
“small tactical nuclear detonations”
Anyway, no, your ideas are terrible. Do you really think the Soviet Union would have just sat there and watched when their, at the time, largest and closest ally got nuked?
N G -》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
Yes I do. Consider the year, consider how long the Soviets had the bomb, breath deeply and think.
Gary Isabusyguy -》 N G • 21 days ago
Since you are re-writing history…
Imagine of we had welcomed Ho Chi Minh as a liberator in the manner of our own forefathers and recognized him as the leader of Vietnam?
Peace is a much more viable option than war
Benjamin Tedoff -》 N G • 22 days ago
“A few small tactical nuclear detonations, down the length of the Yalu River and Peking”
Yes, if we’d dropped nukes on Peking, we could have stopped North Korean Communists from taking over America.
N G -》 Benjamin Tedoff • 21 days ago
Of course we may still have to fight soon, against the Chinese, now much, much stronger!
A R -》 N G • 21 days ago
And the Soviets would have just stood aside and politely applauded?
N G -》 A R • 21 days ago
The Soviets had their hands full trying to control their newly conquered lands in Eastern Europe, and that prize was worth sacrificing China, who as luck would have it became disenchanted with the Soviets later anyway. Didn’t you pay attention in history in school?
Gary Isabusyguy -》 N G • 21 days ago
Divisions between China and Russia would have been forgotten in a hot war between US and China, just like Russia and the west were friends while Nazi Germany was at war
higgs merino -》 N G • 21 days ago