给越南人留下最深刻战争记忆的是中国,而不是美国

给越南人留下最深刻战争记忆的是中国,而不是美国

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USA 给越南人留下最深刻战争记忆是中国,而不是美国

正文翻译

Ask The Vietnamese About War, And They Think China, Not The U.S.

给越南人留下最深刻战争记忆是中国,而不是美国

In one of the many war cemeteries in Lang Son, a city in northern Vietnam, Pham Thi Ky and her family light incense and offer prayers for her brother-in-law, who died 36 years ago in Vietnam’s brief but bloody border war with China.
That 1979 war left more than 50,000 dead. There are other graves here, too. They fought and died against the French occupiers, then the Americans. But relative to China, those were brief battles.
No country weighs on Vietnam like China, and it has been that way for centuries. Has the conflict with China ever really ended, I ask Pham Thi Ky as she lights another candle.
“No,” she says. Her daughter agrees. Her sister is even more emphatic. “It will never end. With the Chinese, how can it ever end?”

谅山,越南北部的一个城市。在这个城市多个战争公墓之中的一个,Pham Thi KY和她的家人焚香祭奠她的姐夫。36年前,他死在越南与中国的短暂却血腥的边境战争中。
1979年的战争造成超过50000人死亡。这里也有其他的坟墓,比如说和法国占领者、美国人战斗中的牺牲者。但相对于中国,那都是些短暂的战斗。
多个世纪以来,没有哪个国家象中国一样在越南人心中占有如此大的比重。当Pham Thi KY她点燃另一支蜡烛时,我问她:”曾经和中国的冲突真的结束了吗”。
“不,”她说。女儿表示同意。她姐姐更是激动。”它永远不会结束。和中国,怎么可能结束?”
越战
Vietnam’s 2,000 year history with its northern neighbor is complex. There have been countless conflicts as well as shared culture. The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Chinese characters. China is also Vietnam’s largest trading partner.
The two countries share a communist ideology shaped in part by their shared history, an ideology largely abandoned by the rest of the world. That helps explain why the 1979 border war is something neither government likes to talk about. But Nguyen Duy Thuc, a veteran of that war, is happy to.
“On the morning of the attack, February 17th, we were sleeping when the Chinese artillery started, then we all ran to our posts,” he says. “Some were dressed, others didn’t even have time to put their pants on, they just ran to their posts to fight.”

2000年来,越南它的北方邻居关系极其复杂。在无数的冲突同时共享文化。在河内的文庙是一个很好的例子。越南国王Ly TháNH TôNG 1070建造以供奉中国哲学家孔子。墙壁上的教导都是用汉字写的。另外中国是越南最大的贸易伙伴。
部分源于他们共同的历史,两国都具有共产主义意识形态,一个很大程度上被世界其他部分所抛弃的思想。这有助于解释为什么两国政府都不喜欢谈论1979的边境战争。但是Nguyen Duy,一个那次战争的老兵,愿意谈论这个话题。
“战斗开始于二月十七日凌晨,中国炮兵发起攻击的时候,我们还在睡觉,我们连忙向岗位跑去,”他说。”有些人穿着衣服,但其他人甚至没有时间穿他们的裤子,他们就这样跑到自己的岗位去战斗。”

At least 200,000 Chinese troops poured into northern Vietnam all along the border. China was aiming to punish Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia the month before to oust the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. There were so many Chinese attacking, Nguyen Duy Thuc remembers, that the soldiers in his bunker “fired our AK-47s until the muzzles turned red and they couldn’t fire anymore.”
But the Chinese kept coming; eventually his bunker was overrun. The Chinese, he says, pumped gas into the ventilation system. There were 800 people, including soldiers, women and children, who fled the fighting in his bunker, Nguyen says.
Only he and two others managed to escape. After nearly a month, the Chinese withdrew, though border clashes continued for the next decade. And Nguyen Duy Thuc hasn’t forgotten. If he catches his wife trying to watch a Chinese movie, he turns it off.
Memories of that war, and the many other bouts of invasion, occupation and retaliation throughout history, color Vietnam’s relationship with China.

至少有200000中国军队进入了越南北部沿边境。因为月前越南入侵了柬埔寨,推翻了中国支持的红色高棉,中国为此发起了惩戒。有这么多的中国人发起进攻,Nguyen Duy记得:”士兵在他的地堡用AK-47射击直到枪口变红,无法开火为止。”
然而中国人的前进无可阻挡。最终他的地堡陷落,中国人向地堡里泵入毒气。Nguyen告诉我地堡里有800人,包括士兵和躲避战火的妇女儿童。
只有他和另外两人得以逃脱。一个月后,中国收兵。在下个十年中,中国和越南的边界冲突一直持续。Nguyen Duy永远忘不了这场战争。如今,如果他在家里发现妻子看中国电影的时候,一定会去关掉。
这场战争的记忆,以及历史上其他的入侵、占领、报复,涂抹着中越关系。
越战
That’s especially true now, with the two countries at odds over what Vietnam views as Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea. When China parked an oil rig in contested waters last year, Vietnam upped its official anti-China rhetoric.
And anti-China rioting left at least a dozen dead, including four Taiwanese mistaken for Chinese. As tension grew, and Chinese and Vietnamese boats played a dangerous game of chicken near the rig, some in the border town of Lang Son grew worried. They feared a repeat of what happened in 1979.
“Last year, we were very frightened. We started stockpiling rice and food. I was very worried that there would be war,” says Pham Thi Ky, the woman at the cemetery.
Back in 1979, she says she was forced to flee with nothing but the clothes on her back, so this time she wanted to be prepared. She even went to the bank to withdraw a large sum of money, just in case. But the bank wouldn’t give it to her, apparently fearing a run.
Vietnam isn’t the only one worried.

尤其是现在,随着越南认为中国在南海扩张,两国的观点越来越歧异。去年,当中国在争议海域架设石油钻井平台时,越南官方抬高了其反华调门。
一场反华暴乱导致了12人死亡,包括四名误认为大陆人的台湾人。两国关系持续紧张,中越船只在南海玩起了危险的游戏(chicken near the rig)。有的在边境城镇–谅山的人开始担心1979重演。
“去年,我们非常害怕,开始储存大米和其他食物” Pham Thi KY在墓地中跟我说。
1979年,她逃亡时只拥有身上的衣服。这一次她想有所准备。她甚至试图去银行取一大笔钱出来,但是银行不同意,担心她跑了。
越南并不唯一担心的国家。
越战
The Obama administration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted, in part, by the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has its Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.
In the South China Sea, China continues to build on several disputed islands and reefs. In April, satellite photos revealed China was constructing a 2-mile-long, military-grade runway on Fiery Cross Reef, prompting howls of protest from the Philippines and Vietnam, both of which claim the island as their own.
“We think this can be solved diplomatically, but just because the Philippines or Vietnam are not as large as China doesn’t mean that they can just be elbowed aside,” President Obama said.

奥巴马政府提出”重返亚洲”,部分原因是试图遏制中国令其东南亚邻国和日本忧心的扩张主义思想。
在南中国海,中国继续扩建几个有争议的岛屿和珊瑚礁。四月,卫星照片显示中国正在永暑礁构建了条2英里长的军用机场跑道。菲律宾和越南都宣称该岛为自己所有。
“我们认为,这可以用外交方式解决,但是菲律宾、越南不够大,中国可以轻易把他们挤开。”奥巴马总统说。

Duong Trung Quoc, a member of Vietnam’s National Assembly and editor of the magazine Past & Present, says, “I think China is not only Vietnam’s problem, but the world’s problem right now.”
Duong says he admires how China appears to be the only civilization in history to have forced its way back onto the world stage after an interregnum.
“It didn’t happen with Greece, or India,” he says. “But China has a chance.”

Duong Trung Quoc,越南人大代表和杂志《过去与现在》编辑一说,”我认为中国不仅是越南的问题,而且是世界的问题。”
他对中国表示钦佩,因为中国是历史中唯一一个落幕后又重新回到前台的文明。
“这没有发生在希腊,也没有在印度。”他说”但是中国获得了他的机会。”
越战
And that’s a problem, he contends, because China still thinks the way it used to back when it was on top.
“China thinks it is at the center. The conquerer. It wants to turn everybody else into its subordinates,” he says. Don’t believe China, Duong says, when it appears to be playing nice. It’s a trap. The Vietnamese, he says, should know.
“After the war, the Vietnamese and the Americans could reconcile. Vietnam and France can reconcile. Veterans from both sides can sit down together and talk. Vietnamese and Chinese veterans hardly ever sit down together,” he says.
Why is this?
“The Vietnamese have had too much experience with the Chinese. The Vietnamese can’t trust the Chinese. We’ve had too much practice,” he adds.
Few in Vietnam’s government talk so openly about the perceived threat from their northern neighbor. They’re wary of igniting more protests, like those last year. And Vietnam’s Communist Party still looks to China as a model of how to keep an authoritarian state in power in the Internet age. But anti-Chinese sentiment among ordinary Vietnamese continues to grow.
Vo Cao Loi lives about a mile from the South China Sea — which the Vietnamese simply call the East Sea — in the central Vietnam city of Danang, where the first U.S. combat troops landed in 1965.
He says he’s a survivor of a massacre next to My Lai, one that claimed 97 lives, including his mother. He no longer considers the Americans enemies, but rather as friends. Allies, even, against Vietnam’s longtime enemy. He believes the Chinese have taken something that belongs to Vietnam.

而问题在于,他认为,中国试图回到他昔日的地位。
“中国认为他们是世界的中心,征服者,试图将所有的人转为他的下属”他说,不要相信中国,如果某件事看上去很美好,那一定是陷阱。越南应该明白这一点。
“战争结束后,越南和美国能调和,越南和法国也可以调和。双方的老兵可以坐下来交谈。但是越南和中国的老兵几乎从不坐在一起,”他说。
为什么呢?
“越南有太多和中国打交道的经验了。越南人不信任中国人,我们有过太多教训”他说。
越南政府几乎没有人像他这样公开谈论北方邻居的威胁。他们担心引发更多的抗议,就像去年一样。越南GCD仍然把中国视为一个在互联网时代保持威权的典范。但是越南民间的反华情绪在不断增长。
Vo Cao Lo生活在越南中部岘港市距南中国海(越南称东海)约一英里的地方。岘港,在1965年,第一支美国作战部队于此登陆。
他说他是美莱大屠杀的幸存者,他母亲是被杀害的97人中的一员。他不再认为美国是敌人,在长期的敌对后,现在他们是朋友,甚至盟友。他认为,中国已经夺去属于越南的东西。
越南战争
“The Spratly and Paracels (islands) are still partly occupied,” he says. “Of course at some point we have to put our differences aside, but we have to get those islands back first. Because it belongs to our ancestors.”
It doesn’t take him long to acknowledge that probably won’t happen.
“They want to spread their control. They will never give back what they took,” he adds. “Vietnam wants to take it back, but the Chinese are strong. So our struggle will last a long time. How long? I can’t tell.”

“西沙和南沙群岛被部分占领”他说”在某些点上我们可以把争议搁置,但是我们必须把这些岛先拿回来。因为这是我们祖先的遗留。”
不需要多少功夫就让他认识到这不现实。
“他们不断扩大他们的控制,他们拿去的就不会再归还”他补充说””越南想要拿回来,但中国太强大了。所以,我们的斗争将持续很长时间。多长时间?我不知道。””

评论翻译

Wunder Warthawg • 22 days ago
This edited post will not use the words “war criminals” or “overweight” or “criminal”.The main thing it’s necessary to avoid when discussing Vietnamese affairs is the mindless slaughter this (edited) country continued at a rate that included dropping more than 2 times bomb tonnage than all the allies used in all of WW2 along with poisoning their people, and their land.Ending of course with a retreat to the fiction of Rambo and beginning equally fatuous and (edited)) wars in the Middle East.
编辑后将不使用单词“战犯”或“超重”或“犯罪”。主要的是避免讨论越南事件是无情的屠杀,以如下的效率,投掷两倍于二战中盟国所用炸弹,荼毒这个(被编辑)国家的人民和土地。虚构一个兰博式的撤退。然后又开始同样愚蠢和(被编辑)的中东战争。
Isisparadigm-》Wunder Warthawg • 10 days ago
We can cure Rambo by changing what we do for fun and work.
我们可以通过改变娱乐和工作来治疗兰博
Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
“The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Mandarin.”
I think the writer meant Chinese characters. Mandarin is a dialect. Other dialects, as well as other languages, also use the Chinese characters. Chinese is comparable to Latin. It was used by scholars and officials.
“在河内的文庙是一个很好的例子。越南国王Ly TháNH TôNG 1070建造以供奉中国哲学家孔子。墙壁上的教导都是用普通话写的。”
我想作者应该指的是汉字,普通话是方言。其他方言,以及其他语言,都是用汉字的。汉语类似于拉丁语,在官员和学者间使用。
Guest-》Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
Absolutely correct, but Mandarin is very complex and the writer is evidently still trying to master the English language: “The Obama Adminstration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted in part with the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has it’s Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.”

For the gazillionth time, Journalsists: “it’s” means “it is!” The possessive of “it” is “its!”
没错,不过普通话非常复杂,而且这个作者还在试图掌握英语中。”The Obama Adminstration’s “pivot toward Asia” is prompted in part with the idea of trying to contain China’s expansionism, which has it’s Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.”为了gazillionth time,这一句中it’s实际为 it is,正确的词语应该是its
Nick B -》 guesst • 10 days ago
Grammatik macht frei!
But as a fellow grammar Nazi I agree. Proof your writing.
???
但作为一个一个语法纳粹我同意你的观点。
Clovis Sangrail -》 guesst • 10 days ago
“It’s” is also a contraction of “it has,” e.g. in “It’s been a long time.”
It’s也可以是”it has,”以及”It’s been a long time.”
Cassandra E Schmidt -》guesst • 10 days ago
Also, I don’t know any country referred to as Franch. It is a cross between France and the French. Seems this article was a bit rushed.
同样,我不知道哪里有个叫“Franch”的国家,这似乎是France 和 French的杂交。这篇文章可能是篇急就章。
LuxAurumque -》 Cassandra E Schmidt • 10 days ago
In Breaking Bad, “” was a new dipping sauce flavor combining French and Ranch dressing.
在Breaking Bad,“ Franch”是一种浸渍沙拉,是法国沙拉和牧场沙拉(French and Ranch dressing)的结合。
Clovis Sangrail -》 LuxAurumque • 10 days ago
Franch sauce, with a defibrillator chaser. Num num!
“ Franch”沙拉,带着defibrillator chaser,Num num
freedumb sings -》 guesst • 10 days ago
Its not “gazillion” but “bazillion” from the brazilnut tree meaning many seeds
不是”gazillion”,而是”bazillion”,源于巴西栗,意思是许多种子。
(以下一堆评论是关于词源词义的,我简直不知所云)
hoang nguyen -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 9 days ago
Technically it’s not Chinese but Classical Chinese or chữ Nho in Vietnamese. Even modern Chinese will find the writings hard to decipher.
从技术上讲,这不是现代汉语,是古典汉语或者越南人说的chữ Nho,即是现代中国人也很难解读。
Peter Melzer -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 10 days ago
The shame is that a French monk in the early 19th century introduced an alphabet which replaced Vietnamese ideographic writing. As a result only some Vietnamese scholars are able to read old texts and know about pre-French history from their own country’s perspective.
遗憾的是19世纪法国传教士引入字母取代越南的表意文字。因此只有一些越南学者能够阅读古籍和从自己国家的视角了解法国殖民前的历史。
Clovis Sangrail -》 Peter Melzer • 10 days ago
The same thing is true in Turkey, which replaced the Arabic alphabet with Roman 80 years ago. Many years ago, I spent an afternoon at the Museum of Turkish and Islamic Art in Istanbul and was admiring an ebony tablet with an inscription in Arabic characters inlaid in the tablet in mother of pearl. A Turkish student who wanted to practice his English attached himself to me and struck up a conversation with “I wonder what it is?” I said that it was obviously a poem. I think he was a bit irritated that a frenk (“European”) like me would presume to make a pronouncement about his culture that he wasn’t able to make himself. His voice rose as he asked me how I could possibly know that. I said that every other line ended in the same group of characters; in short, it rhymed. He triumphantly jabbed his index finger at the right-hand margin, showing me that what I had said wasn’t true. Indeed, there was no repetitive pattern to be seen on the right-hand side of the text. I am sure he thought he had scored a nakaut (“knockout”), and I let him enjoy his imaginary victory, not pointing out to him that Arabic is written from right to left. He was pointing at the wrong side of the tablet. In any case, there is nothing stopping the Vietnamese from transcribing their ancient texts into the modern orthographic system.
类似的事情发生在土耳其,80年前罗马字母取代了阿拉伯字母。许多年前,我花了一个下午的时间在伊斯坦布尔的土耳其和伊斯兰艺术博物馆里欣赏一个有阿拉伯文字铭文的嵌珍珠母乌木片。一个想练习英语的土耳其学生缠上了我,以“我有点好奇这是什么”和我开始对话。我告诉他,这明显是一首诗。我想他有点恼火,因为一个frenk,欧洲人可以对他他本国文化解读,而他却不能。他的嗓门提高了,问我是怎么知道的。我告诉他很明显每一行结尾于同一组字母,简单地说,就是押韵。他得意洋洋地用食指猛戳右手边缘,表示他不信我所言。确实,在文本的右边没有重复的模式。我可以肯定,他一定觉得自己进了个nakaut (“knockout”),我让他去欣赏自己的虚幻胜利,没有告诉他阿拉伯文是从右向左书写的。他指错了铭文的边。不管怎么说,没有什么能阻止越南人将他们的古老文本抄录至现代文字系统。
jellybeanies-》 Clovis Sangrail • 10 days ago
South Korea has been doing that in recent decades, but there is that pesky problem of homophones. And, sure, usually you can tell the meaning from context, but sometimes you need to be precise. When transcribing legislation written in Chinese characters, for example, you don’t want to be introducing uncertainty into the transcription.
近几十年来,韩国也在做同样的事,这导致了恼火的同音问题。当然你可以从上下文了解具体含义,但是有些时候你必须精确表达。当用汉字抄录法律时,作为一个例子,你肯定不希望在抄录时导致不确定性。
Peter Melzer s-》 Clovis Sangrail • 10 days ago
Very few people seem to be able to do that and their number is dwindling.
似乎很少有人能做到,而且数目正在减少
hoang nguyen Peter Melzer • 9 days ago
Romanized Vietnamese (chữ Quốc-ngữ) was not invented by a 19th century French monk. It came into being in the 17th century as a result of Portuguese missionaries. The first dictionary was indeed put to print by a Frenchman, Alexandre de Rhodes (Đắc-lộ in Vietnamese) in 1651 but the text was a trilingual Vietnamese-Portuguese-Latin compendium, testifying to the Portuguese origin. Romanized Vietnamese reflects this partly in orthography.
罗马化越南字不是19世纪法国传教士的发明。而是产于17世纪的葡萄牙修士。第一本字典是由法国人Alexandre de Rhodes (Đắc-lộ in Vietnamese) 在 1651年印刷的。但是文本有着三种语言越南语-葡萄牙语-拉丁语的纲要,这体现了其葡萄牙来源。罗马化越南字在正字法中部分反映了这一点。
Peter Melzer -》 hoang nguyen • 8 days ago
Thanks for the enlightenment.
感谢你的资料
Henry Nguyen -》 Peter Melzer • 9 days ago
It’s partially true that only few Vietnamese scholars are able read old texts but knowledge of pre-French history can be obtained by with translated versions and verified with original versions where necessary. The bigger problem for Vietnamese historians are destroyed ancient records by Chinese conquerors, thus depended heavily on Chinese documents and more modern original records are located in France.
确实只有少数越南学者看得懂古文,然而前殖民地历史历史知识可以通过翻译版本获得,必要时从原始版本进行必要的验证。更大的问题是越南的历史记录被毁于中国征服者,高度依赖于中国档案而近代记录则存在于法国。
Wanderer Cloud -》 Hmmmmmmmmmm • 20 days ago
Yes, you are correct. The wall was written to honor Confucius and is inConfucian script which itself is a writing system, no less! The Vietnamese at the time using their own Chinese derivative writing system :
你是正确的。墙上对孔子的颂词和儒家手迹是同一文字系统。这时候的越南人使用他们自己的中文衍生书写系统。
Seasonya • 12 days ago
“Vietnam’s war with the U.S. lasted just a decade”
The US waged war against Vietnam- not the other way around. Basic history NPR

“越南和美国的战争持续了十余年”
美国公共电台,基础的历史知识是,美国发动了对越南的战争
loverpoint -》 seasonya • 21 days ago
The USA did not declare war on Vietnam , the USA took the side of South Vietnam in a Civil War. The South had been supported by the French in what was considered a war against Communism .
美国并没有发动战争,只是站在内战中南越的一边。南越获得了法国的支持,这被认为是一场对抗共产主义的战争
Kevin Cronin -》 loverpoint • 10 days ago
Not quite correct….The French did not support the South. The area was a colonial possession of France. After WWII the French tried to reestablish control but too weak. The US supported the French but to no avail….the 1954 Geneva accords divided Vietnam with a later date of reunification, the rest as they say is history.
I know this will come off as snotty…but there no reason to be wrong here….there is a lot of correct history out there….you and the two posted up need to look it up.
不完全对,法国不支持南。该地区是法国的殖民地。二战法国试图重新控制但实力太弱。美国支持法国但无济于事…1954年日内瓦协议分越南为南北以待日后统一,现在这都过去了。
I know this will come off as snotty…but there no reason to be wrong here….there is a lot of correct history out there….you and the two posted up need to look it up.(求助,不太明白)

seasonya -》 loverpoint -》• 21 days ago
南越是一个被西方政府支持的独裁政权,大量的美国军事干涉阻止了越南人民的意愿。
The south was propped up with a western backed dictator whom the people rejected hence the need for MASSIVE US military interference to stem the will of the Vietnam people
A R • 22 days ago
Wow, what a brutal 20th century the Vietnamese had endured. The French, then the Japanese, then the French again, then the Americans, then the Cambodians, then the Chinese. Much respect for their resilience and perseverance in the face of foreign interventionists.
喔,越南人经历了多么惨烈的一个世纪啊!法国、日本、又是法国、美国、红色高棉、中国。向他们面对外国干涉是的毅力和韧性致敬。
higgs merino -》 A R • 22 days ago
“You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.”
~Ho Chi Minh

你可能杀掉我们十个人,但我们也会杀掉你们一人,最终你们会被拖垮
——胡志明
Bajie Zhu -》 higgs merino •1 2 days ago
Turned out the kill ration was more like 40 to 1.
实际的比率是四十比一
higgs merino -》 Bajie Zhu • 12 days ago
And they still win.
他们最后还是赢了
Run4Life •22 days ago
Americans are so self-centered to think that the US is the center of Universe and that no one else’s history or actions matter.
美国人太自以为是,以为自己是世界的中心,自认为他们的历史和行动没有一点问题。
Nevoigt • 21days ago
Is this some sort of feel good article designed to make us forget we killed 2 million Vietnamese who were no threat to us, carpet bombed their developing cities and poisoned their people, food supplies and forests?
这是什么感觉良好的文章,意图让我们忘却我们杀害了200万对我们无害的越南人,对他们的城市地毯轰炸,在森林农田人群中释放毒药。
Roger Chavez -》 Nevoigt • 21 days ago
Feel good piece? Try outright propaganda piece, part of Obama’s “Pivot to Asia” to include outright military threats.
感觉良好?试试完全的宣传片段,部分奥巴马的“重返亚洲”战略包括直接的军事威胁
moebius2249 -》 Nevoigt • 22 days ago
Unlike us, they largely seem to be over it.
和我们不一样,他们大部分人认为已经结束了
thanh nguyen -》 moebius2249 • 22 days ago
Technically, the people of Vietnam learned their lessons after the U.S. left. For the people who helped the North Vietnamese commies during the war, they realized that they were fooled the whole time by the North Vietnamese Commies. After the war, the North commies show their true colors and turned out worst than they thought. For next 20 years after 1975. People lived in hell and the country went backward. The country was pretty much like North Korea today.
从技术层面上讲,在美国离开后,越南人收到了教训。那些曾经支持过北越的人意识到他们被愚弄了。战争结束后,朝鲜GCD露出真面目,坏得超过他们的想象。1975后的20年中,国家在倒退,人们生活在地狱中。这个国家和今天的朝鲜一模一样。
Roger Chavez -》 thanh nguyen • 21 days ago
The same North Korea that suffered a million or more deaths in three years due to US bombing? That North Korea?
和朝鲜一样被美国在三年中炸死1百万或者更多的人?这样的朝鲜?

Shuami -》 thanh nguyen • 21 days ago
“The country was pretty much like North Korea today.”
That’s stretching it a tad little bit, don’t you think? You guys are kind of like the Cuban exiles in Florida, how they regard Castro’s Cuba.
“这个国家是很像今天的朝鲜。”
那是有点言过其实了,你不觉得吗?你们有点像在佛罗里达州的古巴流亡者,象他们如何看待卡斯特罗的古巴一样看待越南。
Nevoigt -》 thanh nguyen • 22 days ago
tragically none of our business
不幸的是,这没我们的业务。
hoang nguyen Nevoigt • 21 days ago
Surely Syria, Libya, Rwanda, Bosnia, Germany… are “none of our business” either but they were/are.
当然,叙利亚,利比亚,卢旺达,波斯尼亚,德国…本来“没有我们的业务”,但他们后来都有了。
Sayaka Soreson • 22 days ago
The Vietnamese are among the best fighters on the planet. Any Vietnam veteran will tell you that, including Colin Powell. And, I am sure the Chinese would agree, since they fought against them too. Vietnam sure as come up in the world since 1975. Say what you will about the past and their government, (ours certainly isn’t any better), but they are resilient people, and some of the best neighbors to have.
越南人是世界上最好的战士之一。任何的越战老兵会告诉你,包括柯林.鲍威尔。而且,我相信中国会同意的,因为他们曾经交手。越南确实在1975重返世界。不管怎么说过去以及他们的政府,(我们的也不怎么样),但他们是有弹性的人,是最好的邻居之一。
isisparadigm -》 Sayaka Soreson • 22 days ago
Some Vietnam vets did not shoot the enemy, but tried to avoid conflict. Colin Powell was fooled about weapons of mass destruction. He came on ABC after his service to report on Bush2 lies.
一些越南老兵甚至不向敌人射击,他们尽量避免冲突。柯林鲍威尔被大规模杀伤性武器愚弄了。他来到了ABC,在报告了小布什的谎言后。
Peter Melzer • 22 days ago
One cause for the fading recollections of the American War is that the vast majority of Vietnam’s populace today was born after that war ended, having no own memories of that time.
Americans came and went. China will always remain Vietnam’s neighbor.

对和美国的战争的回忆消逝的主要原因是:越南民众今天绝大多数是战争结束后出世,没有那时候的记忆。
美国人来了又走了。而中国人一直是越南的邻居
Art Aficionado -》 Peter Melzer • 12 days ago
The bigger issue is one decade vs. many. China has become a regional bully.
最大的问题是最近十年和过去相比,中国已经成为地区一霸

Peter Melzer -》 Art Aficionado • 12 days ago
The way China’s foreign policies were explained to me when I asked why the regime cares so much about controlling the pile of rocks that is Tibet, Han Chinese possess a rigid preconception of what territories belong to their empire. Any leadership, Communist or otherwise, would be perceived as weak at home, if it were to let go of these territories. Vietnam has been part of China off and on over thousands of years. The Chinese stance has not changed.
当我询问这个政权如此热衷与控制一堆石块—XZ,中国的外交政策行为向我展现了汉族拥有刚性的偏见,这些领土属于他们帝国。如果放弃这些领土,任何领导,不管是共产主义的还是其他的,都会被认为软弱。过去上千年来,越南曾经是中国的一部分。中国人的立场从不会改变。
Wanderer Cloud -》Peter Melzer • 12 days ago
A bully neighbor as that . The young Vietnamese all want to study in the US. The commie propaganda used to make the kid learn a poem crying for the passing of Stalin. now the joke in Vietnam is : The grandfather cry for Stalin, the father cry for Ho chi minh , now the kids cry for Micheal Jackson!
一个恶霸邻居。年轻的越南人都倾慕美国。共产主义的宣传曾经让小孩学习哀悼斯大林的诗歌。现在越南有个笑话:爷爷哭斯大林,父亲哭胡志明,现在的孩子们哭迈克尔杰克逊。

Frank Vartuli • 12 days ago
Does anyone remember the motive for the Vietnam war? It was based on the “domino theory” of countries over there converting to communism one by one. The gear being the countries would all act s one against US interests. This article proves that as false as did the quick retreat of the Chinese after an armistice was declared in Korea. We are still there however making reunification impossible. This article is an obvious propaganda piece to try to put that gross war crime that was the Vietnam War in a good light.. 3 million Vietnamese died along with 56,000 US young men and women in that failed attempt to replace France as the new colonial ruler. Some Vietnamese are still suffering the legacy of agent orange but cannot get a nickel in indemnity from our GOV.
谁还记得越战的发动理由?它是基于阻止东南亚国家倒向共产主义的“多米诺骨牌理论”。 齿轮链上的国家间将统合起来反对美国的利益。文章证明了中国在停战后快速撤军的错误。我们仍在那儿驻军,而统一遥遥无期。显然这是种宣传,将显而易见的越战犯罪轻描淡写…….越战当中总计有3百万越南人和56,000美国青年丧生于这场企图取代法国成为新殖民统治者的未成功尝试中。直到现在一些越南人还在承受着橙剂的痛苦伤害但是却没有从美国政府那儿获得一分钱的赔偿。
kurtinco -》 Frank Vartuli • 18 days ago
I think you’re so focused on what the US has done wrong that you’ve completely missed the main themes of this article: 1. Vietnam and the US were able to settle their differences, and 2. The Chinese are on the move once again.
It is interesting to note that the Vietnamese culture has a very long memory just as many say the same thing about the Chinese. It is also interesting to note that for all the harm, death and destruction we caused in Vietnam, we are harder on ourselves for it than they are on us and that when the chips are down, they still view China with a far more weary eye than they do the US. That has to count for something significant.

我认为你过于关注美国的错误了,以至于你完全误会了本文的主题:1.越南和美国能够解决他们的分歧;2.中国人又开始行动了。
需要注意的是,越南文化当中有颇长的关于中国的记忆。另一件有趣的事是我们在越南造成的死亡、破坏和伤害,我们自己的记忆超过他们的记忆。现在,他们对中国远比对美国厌烦。这是件值得考虑的事。
M D-》 Frank Vartuli • 18 days ago
North Korea, Cambodia (at one point), Vietnam and Laos. It wasn’t exactly without merit. It just turns out that economics is a much less expensive way to deal with it.

朝鲜,柬埔寨,越南和老挝。这不是完全没有收获的。它恰好证明,经济途径是解决它的更经济的方式。
Clovis Sangrail-》 Frank Vartuli • 18 days ago
The domino theory was revived when the Bush administration failed to produce any evidence of the existence of WMD in Iraq. Then the invasion of Iraq was re-purposed: the removal of Saddam meant that democracy had been introduced into Iraq, and soon every other authoritarian regime in the Middle East would follow suit. Proof of this reverse domino theory was provided by the Arab spring, which introduced democracy to a number of Arab…no wait…Tunisia. For the moment, anyway.
在布什政府未能在伊拉克发现大规模杀伤性武器存在的证据后多米诺理论恢复了。然后,入侵伊拉克被重新定义:萨达姆的清除意味着民主已经进入伊拉克,很快其他独裁政权在中东会效仿。这种反向多米诺理论被阿拉伯之春证明,它将民主引进了一些阿拉伯国家……立刻……突尼斯。那一刻,无论如何。
charles labry -》 Frank Vartuli • 19 days ago
Yes. The US was trying stop to Communist aggression. Remember that Communist North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam, a struggling democracy. We had a defense treaty with South Vietnam, the SEATO agreement, so we were obligated to help them.
是的,美国阻止了共产主义的扩张。记住共产主义的北越侵入了南越,一个挣扎中的民主政权。我们和南越有防卫条约,东南亚条约组织协议,所以我们被卷入了。

Logan Fernandez -》 charles labry • 18 days ago
“Remember that Communist North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam, a struggling democracy.”
What!?!?! A struggling democracy!?! South Vietnam was never a democracy, and never had a real election…ever. Ever.
“记住共产主义的北越侵入了南越,一个挣扎中的民主政权。”什么!?!?一个挣扎中的民主政权!?!?南越从来不是民主政权,从来没有真正的选举,从来没有
Diem, the first president of “South Vietnam” killed almost 12K people that might challenge his authority. He then practically forced Catholicism on a nation that was 70-90% Buddhist. The Catholic church became the largest private landowner in the South despite the small minority of Catholics in the region. Villages that didn’t convert to Catholicism were largely left without protection or the people forced out for Catholic residents.
吴庭艳,南越的第一任总统,为了消灭政权的挑战者杀了一万二千人。他在一个佛教徒占人口70-90%的国家强推天主教。尽管天主教徒人数稀少,天主教会成为了南越最大的私有土地拥有者。不信教的村庄失去了保护,被天主教徒驱赶。
It became so bad that Buddhist monks set themselves on fire in protest. I repeat… they..set…themselves…on fire. This led to over 1400 monks being arrested. and many Buddhist temples and property being destroyed . This caused students to boycott classes in High School and the University in Saigon. Over 1000 students were arrested and sent to “re-education” camps.
形势变得如此糟糕,佛教僧侣自焚抗议。我再重复一遍…他们..……自焚。这导致超过1400僧侣被逮捕。和许多佛教寺庙以及财产被毁坏。这引起了西贡的高中和大学学生罢课, 1000多名学生被捕并被送往“再教育营”。
The “North” didn’t have to send that many men before American got involved. After Diem, plenty of “Southern” Vietnamese joined the NLF (also known as Viet Cong) and fought and rose up with weapons supplied by Hanoi.
在美国卷入之前,北越并没有派出多少人。由于吴庭艳,大量的南越人加入了民族解放阵线(又称越共)战斗,发动起义,由河内提供武器。
No worries,though. America always has an amazing plan “to help people” that don’t really want our help. America realized it looked bad propping up someone who was failing to maintain order in the South with his strict, anti-deomcratice, anti-Buddhist polices… so the CIA sanctioned and backed a coupe that lead to his murder (America couldn’t wait for an election to get him out..because it wasn’t a democracy). This then started a chain of coupes and leadership changes in the South. It was never stable. And it was NEVER a democracy…ever. No leader of “Southern” Vietnam was ever truly elected.
尽管如此,不用担心。美国总是有惊人的计划来帮助那些真的不想要我们帮助的人。美国意识到他们支持者的残暴、反民主、反佛教的政策正在崩坏南越的秩序。于是CIA导演了次谋杀(美国等不到通过选举把他搞下去,这不是个民主国家)。这导致了南越政坛的链式反应、领导的变换,它从不稳定,也从不是民主政权。没有一个南越领导是真正选举的。
There was no “good side” in this conflict. It was a nation divided into two by foreign powers. All nations should have stayed out of this internal conflict. But America couldn’t stand the fact that one side was Communist. That was the ONLY reason for America entering Vietnam. Even if the South had discriminatory policies and no real democracy, at least they weren’t Communist. Because the world was just dominoes waiting to fall.. 50K dead Americans based on a “domino theory”.

在这场冲突中没有“好的一面”。这是一个民族被列强分为两半。在这场内部冲突中所有的国家都应该置身事外。但美国无法忍受这样的事实,冲突中的一边是共产政权。这是美国进入越南的唯一原因。即使南方有歧视性的政策并且没有真正的民主,但他们至少不是GCD。仅仅因为世界只是等待倒下的骨牌,5万美国人死于“多米诺理论”。

hoang nguyen-》 Logan Fernandez • 18 days ago
That detracts nothing from the N Vietnam’s aggression. Furthermore The North’s record of brutality with its own purges, land reforms, and mass executions gave it no right to dictate to others. The war clearly culminated at gunpoint, not one of choice for the Southerners. The mass exodus of refugees and boat people, both in 1954 when the communist came to power in the North (1 million fled south) and in 1975 (2 millions escaped, lasting into the late 1980s) spoke for themselves. South Vietnam was flawed and far from perfect but of those 2 regimes, the people clearly voted with their feet.
You are also wrong to say that the North did not send men until the US got involved. The “National Liberation Front” fronted by the communists announced its agenda 1960 to topple the government of South Vietnam. The US came in 1964.
Lastly the Domino Theory did come true partlỵ. Both Laos and Cambodia fell to the communists in 1975. The rest of SEA did not but Vietnam was not a simple case of internecine conflict.
和北越是否入侵无关。另外,北越自己的残暴记录,关于他们的清洗、土改、集体处决,使得他们没有权利号令他人。南方人在战争的枪口下没有其他选择。两次大规模的难民潮,1954GCD在北方掌权(1百万逃亡),1975(2百万逃亡,一直持续到80年代晚期)。南越是有缺点的,并非完美,但是这两个政权中,人们用脚做出了投票。
你的另一错误,并不是美国卷入后,北越才派遣人员。由GCD人组成的民族解放阵线1960年就宣布了要推翻南越政府的决议。而美国1964才进入。
最后,多米诺理论还是有部分真实性。1975年,老挝、柬埔寨落入GCD。越南不是一个简单的内部冲突。

Logan Fernandez-》 hoang nguyen • 19 days ago
“The war clearly culminated at gunpoint, not one of choice for the Southerners.”
Mostly because the Southern’s knew they were outgunned and outnumbered. If Diem thought he could win an all out war with an invasion of the North, he would have done it in a heart beat. He was already cracking down on Buddhists very hard, killed over 12k of his “opponents”, and wouldn’t have thought twice of invading the North and slaughtering anyone he thought supported the Communist cause if he had the military and support. No matter who won this war, people were going to be slaughtered.
“南方人在战争的枪口下没有其他选择。”
主要是因为南方知道他们在武器和人数上的劣势。如果吴庭艳认为他能赢的话,他会立马来个会心一击。他早已对佛教徒严厉打击,杀死1万2千敌人,如果能有军事支持,对于入侵北方杀死任何一个共产主义者不会思考第二遍。这场战争,无论谁获胜,人们都要经受屠杀

“You are also wrong to say that the North did not send men until the US
got involved. The “National Liberation Front” fronted by the communists
announced its agenda 1960 to topple the government of South Vietnam. The
US came in 1964. ”
I said they didn’t send many men at first. And I said they used the NLF before US involvement. For some reason you are equating the NLF to be all from the North. That is not true. The majority of the NLF were Southern Vietnamese sympathetic to Hanoi (which quickly gathered support after Diem, and one reason why the US had to sanction a coupe/murder of the South government). Hanoi tried to keep as many of their own actual soldiers North to prepare and train for the all out war. Hanoi tried using the NLF (Again, mostly Southern Vietnamese) to do a lot of the work for them before an all out war.
“你的另一错误,并不是美国卷入后,北越才派遣人员。由GCD人组成的民族解放阵线1960年就宣布了要推翻南越政府的决议。而美国1964才进入。”
我说的是他们一开始没有派多少人,我也说了民族解放阵线建立于美国人进入之前。出于某些原因,你把民族解放阵线等同于全部来自与北方,这是错的。民族解放阵线的成员主要是同情河内的南方人(在吴庭艳上台后他们被迅速聚集起来,所以美国要暗杀吴庭艳)河内力图尽量保持和训练他们的士兵为全面战争做准备。在全面战争之前河内总是力图使用民族解放阵线(再次声明,他们主要是南方人)去完成工作。
“. The mass exodus of refugees and boat people, both in 1954 when the communist came to power in the North (1 million fled south)”
Because they could. America and other foreign powers offered their Navy to transport people South and booster Diem. No one offered to transport anyone North. They all had to leave by foot, and there is was no accurate number of how many went North because of this. With how well bolstered and supported the NLF was in the South, the South obviously had plenty of Hanoi supporters that may have gone North if a Navy ship offered safe passage.
“1954年的百万人大逃亡”
这是因为他们有办法逃亡,美国和其他外国军队提供海军将民众南运支持吴庭艳。而没有人提供北上的援助,他们只能用自己的双脚。,所以没有北上人群的精确数字。从民族解放阵线的支持者来看,显然南方有大批的河内支持者,如果有海军船只提供安全通道,他们同样会北上。

Again, I’m not a North supporter. I don’t like EITHER regime, and don’t think either was worth killing 50K of our own to support. Anytime you have to “support” a government by having the CIA sanction a COUPE/Murder of the acting “president”, then you know you aren’t supporting a good government, and have no business trying to prop it up. Vietnam should not have been touched at all by foreign powers.
Also, the domino theory states that if we allow a country to become communist, then other countries will be communist on their own will just because they are next to it. Australia, Japan, Indonesia, the Philippines.. all of them were suppose to fall to communism after Vietnam. We equated this with the Soviet Union gaining a sphere of influence… which is bogus since the Asian countries didn’t really care for the Soviets. All if it was a bogus premise to go to war.
再次,我不是个北方支持者。两边我一个也不喜欢,知识认为为了支持我们所支持的一方而死去的五万青年死得不值。一旦你知道必须通过CIA暗杀现任总统来“支持”一个政府,你就应该明白这不是个好货,没有任何必要掺和。越南应该杜绝列强的操纵。
另外,多米诺理论指的是一个国家落入共党手中,他的邻居就会相继转变为共产社会。澳大利亚、日本、印尼、菲律宾,都被认为在越南陷落后会跟着沦丧。我们把它等同于苏联企图获得全球影响力。但这是错的,亚洲人对苏联并不感兴趣。我们只是为了一个错误的前提去打仗
hoang nguyen-》 Logan Fernandez • 18 days ago
The NFL as seen after 1975 were all eliminated from power by Hanoi. The NFL is an arm of the North.
There were elements in the South that wanted peace but none survived 1976 as the North took control. It was a fictive state.
1975以后,民族解放阵线全被河内政权清除掉了。民族解放阵线不过是北方的手臂。确实有南方分子希望和平,但是在北方掌控以后,没有人活过1976。这不过是个虚构的国家。
Logan Fernandez-》 hoang nguyen • 18 days ago
I don’t think you and I disagreeing. Yes..the NLF was an arm of Hanoi…made up of mostly Southern Vietnamese who wanted to rise up against the Southern government. The people fighting the US/South weren’t just the North. A huge amount were Southern Vietnamese (That sided and aided Hanoi) that no longer wanted to be ruled by colonial powers or their puppet governments that arrested and destroyed Buddhists, sent protesters to “re-education” camps, gave all housing to the minority Catholics, or just flat imprisoned/killed anyone that stood in the government’s way..
And neither regime truly wanted two Vietnams living peacefully. Whoever won the war was going to assimilate the other side in a blood bathe and “re-education” camps. Those who wanted peace only had the option to leave. If the South won, and invaded the North..China and the US would have seen a mass amount of North Vietnamese refugees as well. There wasn’t a “good side” in this war. Only one that wasn’t Communist, which was good enough for the US to get involved.
我想我们之间具有分歧。是的,民族解放阵线确实是河内的手臂,但是构成却是起义反对南方政府的南方人。和美国、南越战斗的不仅是北方人。里面有巨大的数量是南方人(站在北越一边并支持他们),他们或者不再想被殖民势力统治,或者反对那个镇压佛教徒,将抗议者送入再教育营,将家产划归天主教徒的傀儡政府,或者仅仅反对政府采用这种方式逮捕杀害民众。
没有办法让双方真正和平共处。任何一方的胜利都会掀起血雨以及再教育高潮。那些希望和平的只有离开一条道路。如果南方获胜,侵入北方。中国和美国就可以看到大量的北方难民。战争的任何一方都谈不上好。美国加入的理由只不过是因为一方不是GCD。
Wunder Warthawg-》 hoang nguyen • 19 days ago
Missing the small details that there never was a South Vietnam, that the majority of migrants who voted with their feet were Catholic, connected to the French, or Chinese merchants . In addition the fictional south Vietnam never had a popular military or even a tax paying base or stable leadership tha t was anything more than puppets ingratiated with the CIA.
一个细节方面的错误,用脚投票难民的主体是天主教徒、与法国关联者,或者中国商人。另外,南越从来没有一个普遍的军人、纳税人阶层和稳定的领导层,有的只是只懂讨CIA欢心的傀儡。
hoang nguyen -》 Wunder Warthawg • 18 days ago
It is exactly the intolerance in the North of any minority rights, if you call it that, which forced people to flee. The viability of the South along with its flaws do nothing to justify the North’s action. It was consistently the case that with each offensive launched by the communists, 1954, 1968, 19722, 1975 the people streamed south, away from the “liberators” until they had nowhere to go but to sea. If they were on the payroll of the CIA, the Vietnamese refugees in America would be super-flushed with funds and pensions of their operative days.
正是对权力缺乏的难以忍受,导致了人员的逃亡。南方的缺陷并不意味着北方的正确。GCD不断发出进攻性活动,1954,1968,1972,1975,人们不断南涌远离解放者,直到前面是大海。如果他们在CIA的工资单上,在美国的越南难民将为基金和他们的密探退休金兴奋。
Wunder Warthawg-》 hoang nguyen • 19 days ago
The rights of French collaborators and Catholics associated with them didn’t count for much nor did wealthy landowners who enslaved their own people.
天主教徒和法国合作者的权力取决于他们是否富有或者是不是奴役他人的地主。
Charina Bottae -》 charles labry • 21 days ago
Why though? Why did we have a defense treaty with South Vietnam? What could the US possibly have hoped to gain from that arrangement other than a hopelessly weak, corrupt government, a massive liability and black sheep in the region that we would have been obliged to protect into eternity?
To much of our view on Vietnam’s history boils down to “North Vietnam invades South because they’re evil!” and it ignores centuries of historical context or the actual rationale behind NV’s actions.
I am *NOT* saying that the Communist Vietnamese were the good guys or the protagonists, but we need to look at these issues with a bit more nuance.

为什么,为什么我们要和南越签订防务条约,为什么美国希望从操纵他国得到收获,一个无能、腐败、债务庞大的政府,当地的害群之马,我们被迫要一直保护下去。

在越南历史上我们有那么多观点将之归纳为“北约入侵南越,因为他们是邪恶的”而忽略历史的背景和北越行动的真实原因。
我并不是说北越是好人。但是我们需要更为细致地观察这些事件。
Wunder Warthawg -》 Frank Vartuli • 21 days ago
Encore Frank!
When a big fat war criminal country like the US wants a little action it learned to stay away from remembering the devastation it caused , never admit to its crimes, and be very sure it never lets itself look back or see itself in the mirror. Of course , in the meantime, it decays faster than a worm on a sidewalk on a hot summer day.
再来一次Frank!
当一个大块头战犯国家比如说美国想要一个小行动,他学会了远离关于他造成破坏的记忆,不承认犯罪,从不回头或者照镜子。当然,在这期间,它消逝得比夏天里人行道上的一只蠕虫还快。
Fisherguy -》 Frank Vartuli • 21 days ago
It was their civil war, and we jumped into it. And Henry Kissinger still isn’t in prison….
这是他们的内战,而我们跳了进去,而且亨利基辛格依然没有入狱
jellybeanies • 20 days ago
A missing piece of vital information is that Vietnam was part of China for a thousand years. And part of Vietnam’s founding story as an independent nation is that mythologised war against the Chinese one thousand years ago.
Think about how the concept of “freedom” birthed during the American Revolution resonates throughout American society today. Then take that fervour, replace freedom with “opposing China,” add several hundred years of embellishment and cultural absorption, and there you have it. As a foundation of a national identity, this is Moses-leading-the-Jews-of-out-Egypt type stuff.
被忽略的重要信息是一千年前越南是中国的一部分,一部分越南独立的故事一千年前对中国的神话般的战争。
想想看美国独立战争时的“自由”篇章在今天的美国社会中的共鸣。他们的热诚类似,只不过是把“反对中国”代替了“自由”,加以数百年的润色和文化吸收,然后就成了这样。作为一个国家认同的基础,类似于摩西的出埃及记。
Wanderer Cloud -》 jellybeanies • 20 days ago
You are completely ignorance in Vietnamese history. Vietnam was never “part of China ” China was always try to invade and colony but kicked out by the Vietnamese. by the way
Lý Thánh Tông like many Vietnamese king, he
Defeat of the Chinese ( Song period ) invaders :
你完全不懂越南历史,越南从来不是中国的一部分,中国一直企图入侵和殖民越南然而被越南人赶了出去。另外Lý Thánh Tông就像许多越南国王一样,他打败了宋朝侵略者。
Surethingbob -》 Wanderer Cloud • 20 days ago
Actually, technically it was. You may be arguing semantics, but Vietnam was technically a province of China for most of the period from 111 BC to 939 AD (many people would argue being a province qualifies as being part of). After that, it was no longer a province but simply a tributary state. Of course, Vietnam at the time was a lot smaller and hadn’t expanded southward yet.
实际上,从技术层面上它是。你也许认为这只是词面上,然而越南人在111 BC to 939 AD中的绝大多数时间里都是中国的一个省(许多人认为他只是一个省的一部分)。在这之后不再是省,但是是藩属国。当然,这时候的越南比现在小得多,还没有向南方扩张。
Wanderer Cloud -》 Surethingbob • 19 days ago
Historically, there is no China until Qin Shi Huang
历史上,秦始皇之前,这里根本没有中国人

arlenesimmins -》 Wanderer Cloud • 20 days ago
America and China have some things in common, two powerful nations having their way with smaller weaker nations in the region such as Latin America and SE Asia. You might say China is the “Gringo” of the East.
美中之间具有共性,一个是拉丁美洲的强权,一个是东亚强权。你可以说中国是东方的“外国佬”
isisparadigm • 21 days ago
The deep involvement of the USA in Vietnam started in 1954 with the funding of the French war effort. The French effort was part of the colonial movement which started in the 1600’s in some places. This is a known history of the world. If We look back the US refused to sign the peace agreements the rest of the world did and the Vietnam conflict continued with USA sending military “advisers” and finally launched a bombing campaign larger than that of WW2. The war in 1979 was brief and was the Chinese response (home land security)to one of the few successful military campaigns in the history of the world. By successful I mean that newly United Vietnam’s effort to stop the killing by the forces in Cambodia which where a result of the USA effort to prevent a united Vietnam. The US had a secret war in Laos and Cambodia and destabilized their government and radicals filled the void. Like now the USA invasion only intensified the conflict in the areas. One problem we have is The Monroe Doctrine which allows our government to front for big business in managing the world economy. China and the US supply 40% of the worlds CO2 and even with California on broad the World is going to pass the 2 degree Climate Increase. There is a different History on these events which is less promoted and the original investigative reporters and the leaders from the Students for a Democratic Society should be heard. I am old enough to have sorted through the various meanings of the eras “Free Fire” zones. It is time to realize that human behavior goes Psycho in intense competition and to move our educational systems into areas of supported learning. I think healing music, mediation, exercise and yoga are much better than being a fan. Please do not blame the soldiers, our leaders take us to these “states of mind” and they need to do a better job. Thanks for the space.
美国的深度卷入起始于1954向法国人提供战争经费,法国人的努力是十七世纪以来殖民运动的部分,这是众所周知的历史。如果我们回顾美国拒签和平协议,尽管其他方都同意了,然后派出军事顾问,最终超过二战规模的轰炸。与之相比,短暂的1979年中国国土安全反应战争是世界少有的成功的军事活动。对于胜利我认为还有新统一的越南阻止了柬埔寨的屠杀,这是美国阻止越南统一的后果。美国对老挝、柬埔寨发动秘密战争,动摇他们的政府,然后激进分子上台。就像现在一样,美国的入侵加剧了地区的冲突。我们现在的一个问题是门罗主义,这导致我们的政府站在大型企业前列操纵世界经济。中国和美国排放了世界40%的二氧化碳,在加利福尼亚气温已经上升两度。这些初始事件上有不同的历史,最初的调查记者和民主社会的学生领袖应该听说过。我的年纪使我足以梳理理《自由开火地带》年代的各种意义。是时候认识人类行为在激烈竞争中的心理学了,还有转变我们的教育系统进入支持学习领域。我认为音乐疗法,调解,运动和瑜伽比追星好得多。请不要责怪士兵,我们的领导把我们带入这些心态,他们需要做一个更好的工作。谢谢这个空间。
Wunder Warthawg-》 isisparadigm • 19 days ago
It doesn’t hurt to breathe a little fire now and then.
时不时呼吸热空气没有坏处。

vibrato • 21 days ago
How odd that the war that had such a profound affect on America seems to have had nowhere near the same impact on Vietnam. What folly for the U.S. it was…
多么奇怪,对美国影响深远的一场战争似乎消失了,类似越南的同样冲击。美国人多么愚蠢啊
isisparadigm -》 vibrato • 21 days ago
Vietnam is still suffering from unexploded bombs and mines. There are museums where the agent orange babies are still on display and we need to be critical of some corporate stories. Wall Street supported Bush2’s invasion. Vietnam calls the war the American war. Now look at your clothing labels and then try to find out how much the workers are paid and if they have safe work conditions
越南人仍在经受未爆弹和地雷的折磨。博物馆里依然在展出橙剂婴儿。我们必须批评某些公司。华尔街支持小布什的侵略活动,越南人将这场战争称为美国战争。现在看看你的衬衫标签,试着找出工人的工资,他们是否有安全的工作条件。
moebius2249-》 vibrato • 21 days ago
Vietnam was a fall from innocence for the U.S. For them it appears to be one of many wars.
越南人出现在多场战争当中,他们在美国人心目中的天真形象要塌掉了。
charles labry-》 vibrato • 21 days ago
Because half of the country knows we were there trying to help them.
因为超过半数的国家都知道我们在努力帮助他们
TheDude1244 -》 charles labry • 21 days ago
Help? We had be taught that after Australia we would be next.
帮助?我们一直被教育澳大利亚的下一个就是我们

higgs merino -》 TheDude1244 • 21 days ago
Still gotta thank Boy Geo for keeping the Viet Cong out of Texas. It worked.
还必须感谢Boy Geo把越共赶出德克萨斯。他的工作。
Wunder Warthawg-》 vibrato • 21 days ago
Actually it’s called an American war crime.
事实上它被称为美国的战争犯罪。
Run4Life -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
The Frightened Vietnamese Kid Who Became A U.S. Army General
http://www.npr.org/blogs/paral…
惊恐的越南孩子成为美国陆军将军
http://www.npr.org/blogs/paral…
vibrato-》 Wunder Warthawg • 20 days ago
The opposition to the Vietnam War in the United States was largely based on the view by many, particularly young people, that the war was immoral. I strongly share this view. Further, the war was based on a blindly foolish foreign policy. Ironically, the US had the opportunity to become an ally of Ho Chi Minh when he came to he U.S. for help in the 50’s. But we were so blinded by the Red Scare that we refused, not seeing that he was more nationalist than communist.
Despite the horrors of that war, Vietnam seems to have recovered, becoming a stable country with a growing economy. (This is my impression, but if I’m wrong I’ll admit it.) Whereas it seems to me that something in America died as a result of that war, and we have never recovered from it. Some say innocence, but I think that it was something more. There is a kind of justice in that, but it is a bitter justice. And it doesn’t seem to have given us insight into the folly of our arrogance and our simplistic view of the world, as demonstrated by the even more mind-bogglingly foolish foreign policy of the G. W. Bush years.
There seems to be a lot of personal pain behind your posts and I’m sorry for that. But if Vietnam can put the war largely behind it, perhaps the U.S. should find a way to do so as well. But with lessons finally learned.
美国社会对越战的反对相当大程度基于大量的异乎寻常年轻的人认为这场战争不道德。我强烈赞同这点。进一步说,盲目愚蠢的外交政策导致了这场战争。讽刺性的是,越南本来有机会成为美国的盟友,五十年代胡志明曾经来美国寻求帮助。盲目的对红色政权的恐惧导致我们的拒绝,而无视他其实民族主义成分超过了共产主义成分。
在这场恐怖战争之后,越南已经恢复过来了,成为一个经济增长的稳定国家(这是我的印象,如果错了请指正)。而对我来说,作为这场战争的结果,美国的某些东西已经死去,再也恢复不过来了。有人说是天真,但我认为可能更多。这里面有着一种正义,一种痛苦的正义。这没有是我们反省我们的愚蠢傲慢和简单的世界观。小布什年代的更加难以置信的愚蠢外交政策就是证明。
看来你的过去有着许多的个人痛苦,我为此抱歉。不过如果越南人能让这场战争过去,我想也许美国也能找到类似的途径。不过我们要汲取教训。
Wunder Warthawg -》 vibrato • 20 days ago
Very thoughtful but change that pain to deep-seated anger and an unwillingness to suffer war mongering fools …ever or silently
深刻的思考,然而应该将痛苦转换为对战争贩子的反对和根深蒂固的怒火,而不是沉默
Roger Chavez -》 vibrato • 20 days ago
Do you really believe what you just wrote? We aren’t getting the whole story.
你真的相信你写的东西,我们并不知道事情的全部。
vibrato Roger Chavez • 20 days ago
Aren’t we?
我们?
Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
The main thing it’s necessary to avoid when discussing Vietnamese affairs is the mindless slaughter this overweight, ignorant country continued at a rate that included dropping more than 2 times the bomb tonnage than all the allies used in all of WW2 along with poisoning their people, and their land.Ending of course with a retreat to the fiction of Rambo and beginning equally fatuous and criminal wars in the Middle East.
最主要的事情是如何避免,当讨论越南人被这个超重、无脑的大国无情地屠杀,以如下的效率,投掷下两倍于二战中盟国使用的炸弹吨位,毒害越南的人民,类似于兰博的撤退,然后在中东又开始愚蠢的战争犯罪。

isisparadigm-》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
Look back at the Vietnam soldiers (on line). What do we see? Cigs in their head bands. That should tell us something too.

回头看看越南士兵(顺队列看)。我们看到了什么?在他们的头上带的Cigs。这说明了很多事情。
brian woo • 21 days ago
No mentioning how many Chinese Vietnamese were forced to flee?
没人提及多少华裔的被迫逃亡吗
Bajie Zhu • 11 days ago
This is plain propaganda. The Chinese over millennia likely killed fewer Vietnamese than the 6 years of the American Vietnam War.
IF indeed it were true that the Vietnamese cannot resolve their feelings towards the Chinese, it is the fault of the Vietnamese government. Life is about choices. It is not likely that Vietnam will get the long end of the stick any time soon as against an ascending China. Does Vietnam truly expect to come out ahead disputing the South China Sea territorial claims? First casualty would be all the Chinese investments instead going to neighbors and bypassing Vietnam. Rational leaders would rationally lead their people towards working constructively with China, and benefiting from the new institutions such as AIIB and the Silk Road projects. The opportunity is there for all to set aside disputes, and seek to make the lives of the common people richer first.
这是宣传文章。千年以来中国人杀死的越南人总和远小于美国人六年之中干的。
如果这是真的,如果越南人不能解决他们对中国的感情,这是越南政府的过错。生活就是选择。越南不可能成功对抗快速上升的中国。越南人真的希望去争夺南中国海争议领土?首先将损失所有的中国的投资,将投入邻国和绕过越南。理性的领导人会带领人民走向理性,与中国进行建设性的合作,并受益于新的机构如AIIB和丝绸之路项目。有机会大家搁置争议,寻求使普通人生活更富足应该排在第一。
Hien Nguyen • 15 days ago
Noth Vietnam invaded South Vietnam violated Paris Peace accord in 1973. Le Duan said: “”We” fought the South was for China and Russia”. Meant North Vietnam has been China and Russia’s mercenary army using “united country” as propaganda. Viet Commies used it to stay in power. Ho Chi Minh was a number 7th war criminal in the world.
北越入侵南越违反了1973年巴黎和平协议。黎笋说:“我们为了中国和俄罗斯在南方作战”。这意味着越南北部一直是中国和俄罗斯的雇佣军,同一国家只不过是块招牌,越南GCD利用它掌控政权。胡志明是世界上的第七号战犯。
Cat’s Paw • 19 days ago
Poor Vietnam, served as the proxy battle field between U.S. and U.S.S.R. … That ought to be enough. Could they wind up serving as a proxy battle between U.S. and China? That would be just – too – much!
可怜的越南人,作为美国和苏联的代理战场应该就够了,难道还要成为中美之间的代理战场?这也太那过分了把!
W Li • 20 days ago
To contain China, so the US is in the mood to court Vietnam now? It’s so funny, US once courted China for the almost same reason of containment, but the aim was to cut off Vietnam. Here is one problem: the nations of SE Asia either hate Vietnam, like Cambodian and Laos, since Viet always tried to invaded and to dominate in that area historically, or dislike Vietnam like Thailand, Singapore and Malaysia. A pivot to Vietnam will push some of them to further alight on China. The recent ASEAN conference showed Vietnam have few friends.
为了遏制中国,美国才有兴趣关注越南。太好笑了,同样为了遏制,美国曾向中国求爱,目标是砍向越南。现在的问题是:东南亚国家要么憎恨越南,比如说柬埔寨、老挝,历史上越南一直试图侵略并统治他们,或者讨厌越南,比如说泰国、新加坡、马来西亚。越南将推动他们进一步转向中国。最近的东盟会议表明,越南没有朋友。
Kevin Cronin-》 W Li • 19 days ago
Historically? How far back is your history? Khmer Empire lasted about 6 hundred years and consisted of parts of Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos and Thailand. North Vietnam was part of the Chinese Tang Dynasty.
历史上?你的历史从哪开始?高棉帝国持续了六百年时间,包括了柬埔寨、越南、老挝和泰国。北越是唐朝的一部分。
Wanderer Cloud-》 W Li • 19 days ago
Enemy of our enemy is our friend. Even when China was ruled by the mighty mongol and try to push south (Domino isn’t it?), they was stop by Vietnam :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T…
敌人的敌人就是朋友。甚至中国也曾残暴的蒙古所统治并向南扩张(多米诺不是吗?),直到受阻于越南。
Roger Chavez • 20 days ago
NPR, National Propaganda Radio for the people who think they are well informed. Instead of this of this typical NPR fluff piece, open your eyes with this: http://www.wsws.org/en/article…

NPR,国家广播电台的受众自以为拥有充分的信息,代之于典型的NPR娱乐片,真开眼睛看看http://www.wsws.org/en/article…

thanh nguyen • 21 days ago
For centuries, the Chinese invaders have never stopped conquering Vietnam. It’s in their blood and brain. When you live next to a neighbor who always want to rob your house and kill your family. What would you do? what kind of a neighbor is that?
几个世纪以来,中国侵略者从未停止征服越南的举动,这已经烙印于他们的血液和大脑。当你拥有一个一直想洗劫你的家园杀害你的家人的邻居,你会怎么办?一个怎么样的邻居啊?
W Li-》 thanh nguyen • 20 days ago
Historically China was requested to discipline Vietnam by it’s protected states in the SE Asia, Vietnam was bully itself to its neighbors.
历史上中国是被要求管制越南以保护东南亚国家,越南才经常欺负他的邻国。
kwayzywabbit • 21 days ago
War is costly, and the PRC paid for all the ammo during the first Indochina war, as well as half of the second. How can anyone ask China not to require payment, or respect from Vietnam? If you cannot pay for every bullet with a kilo of rice, you have make that up with something else, such as land and dignity.
战争是要花钱的,中国为第一次印支战争的军火付了全款,第二次印支战争一半。中国怎么就不能要求越南的报答和尊敬。如果你不能为每一粒子弹支付一公斤大米,那么就拿其他的来换吧,比如说土地和尊严。
moebius2249-》 kwayzywabbit • 21 days ago
So China can take whatever it wants from Vietnam?
那么中国就可以在越南拿走他想要的东西?

kwayzywabbit -》 moebius2249 • 21 days ago
yes, and they did, and are taking, and will take more.
正是这样,他们拿了,还在拿,而且将要拿更多。

moebius2249-》 kwayzywabbit • 21 days ago
Just wanted to clarify that you’re indeed an authoritarian.
只想说,你是个权力至上者。
kwayzywabbit -》 moebius2249 • 21 days ago
no, not at all. nor do i claim to be an expert on the subject. just saying that if you lay with dogs, don’t be surprised if you get fleas. i do not think china is right, but the north vietnamese did indeed eat the scraps off the chinese table, now they have to find a way to pay back what their master demands. if no payment is made, the chinese will take the land or whatever they want, including the dignity of a nation. ciao!
不,完全不,我并不认为我是这方面的专家。我只是说如果你与狗为伍,就不要惊讶被染上跳蚤。我不认为中国是正确的,但是北越确实是从中国的餐桌上乞讨来的剩饭,现在他们必须找到法子回报主人的要求。没有回报,中国将拿走他们的土地或者其他想要的东西,包括国家尊严。草!

moebius2249 • 21 days ago
Vietnam is currently seeking military ties with the U.S.
越南正在和美国商谈军事条约
Wanderer Cloud • 21 days ago
This article shows the Domino doctrine is tragically flaw, the US involved in Vietnam to prevent the red China take over South East Asia, but right after the War end, it was the red Vietnam and the red China fighting each other, not to mention Khmer rouge .
这篇文章显示了多米诺理论的悲剧性错误。美国卷入越战以阻止红色中国获取东南亚。但是战争结束后,红色越南和红色中国反而打起来了,更别提红色高棉。
isisparadigm -》 Wanderer Cloud • 21 days ago
The Domino Doctrine and Weapons of mass destruction should be examined in the same segment.
多米诺理论和大杀器应该在同一段检验。
Wanderer Cloud -》 isisparadigm • 19 days ago
I think with all the money spent, the US could have just bought the North Vietnam
我想美国花在越战的钱足以买下北越。
LuxAurumque • 21 days ago
China’s Peaceful Rise.
中国的和平崛起
Wunder Warthawg-》 LuxAurumque • 21 days ago
The Vietnamese have been stopping China for 2000 years but we called them a domino.
越南曾经挡在中国前面2000年,而我们却称之为多米诺
Wanderer Cloud-》 LuxAurumque • 19 days ago
That is a ruse.
这是计策
Mark This • 21 days ago
They fought China immediately after America left
和美国人打完后就立刻和中国打
Wunder Warthawg -》 Mark This • 21 days ago
Correction:
They continued their 2000 year old war to keep China out of their country after they defeated the Americans and their puppet government.
没错,
两千年来,他们打败美国支持的傀儡政府后,又开始了延续两千年的战争,将中国人驱之门外。

Mike Burton • 21 days ago
Great article, the whole truth about the relationship between China and Vietnam. The truth that insured our defeat in the Vietnam War. Hanoi’s overwhelming concern was to have a unified Vietnam so that it could stand up against Chinese conquest. We stood boldly in the path of that goal and got run over. We made ourselves their enemy, but they knew we would not be around for long so they never took their eyes off their real enemy, China, and they still haven’t. Sitting on my little intelligence gathering perch at Ramasun Station in Thailand I had figured this out by 1969, and so had some others, but LBJ and Bobby MacNamara stayed resolutely on the wrong page.
好文章,反映了中越的真实关系。真相是,确定我们将在越战失败后,河内关心的问题是组建统一的越南以抵抗中国的要求。我们冒失地站在这一目标前面,并且被碾了过去。我们使自己成为他们的敌人,但他们知道我们不可能永远在此,所以他们的目光一直没有离开他们的真正敌人—中国。在他们还没有和中国决裂之前,1969年我在泰国Ramasun的情报收集小站的时候就已经想通了这一点,还有其他人也和我有相同看法,但是LBJ和 Bobby MacNamara他们全都站在错误的一边。

isisparadigm-》 Mike Burton • 21 days ago
I think MacNamara was the worse case. The debate on Vietnam even had God take a side. A lot of people worked making ammo and weapons. The new weapons industry has placed their factories in key places and In Bush2’s war we saw support from Wall Street. I do not know if Wall Street was as active in supporting Vietnam as they where for Bush but I do know Nixon had to go off the gold standard to pay for Vietnam. I think it is sad that we can produce for war but do not have a New Deal for nature and climate change.
我想MacNamara是最坏的例子。关于越战的争论就是上帝也要选边,有许多人以制造军火为生。新武器工业将他们的因素至于关键位置。在小布什的战争中我们看到了华尔街的蛊惑。我不清楚越战是否获得过华尔街的支持就像小布什时代一样。但我知道尼克松从越战中获得标准金的报酬。我想,悲剧的是,我们可以发动战争却不能签订自然和气候的新条约。
Wunder Warthawg-》 Mike Burton • 21 days ago
Excellent summary of how a big ,fat, ignorant war criminal country got its tail kicked, went home to watch Rambo, and blinded itself to its war crimes.
一个优秀的总结,关于一个大块头无脑的战争罪犯被踩了尾巴,回家去看兰博,蒙上自己的眼睛以忘却战争罪行。

higgs merino -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
Then repeat in 2001, 2003….same acting characters (Powell) So few know his connection to My Lai, decades later not a lesson learned in whole the bunch.
然后在2001,2003.。。。鲍威尔继续着同样的表演。没有人知道他和美莱大屠杀的关联,战争数十年后,依然没有接受教训。
isisparadigm -》 higgs merino • 21 days ago
I have the “General’s War” which came out for the 1990’s middle east war and was written by a Marine Corp General. The book featured Powell.
我有海军陆战队将军写的关于九十年代中东战争的《将军的战争》一书,里面详细刻画了鲍威尔。
TheDude1244-》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
Quite colorful.
真是多彩。
Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
Southeastern Asian politics and Communist international politics were absolutely bizarre. I STRONGLY recommend a book titled “Why Vietnam Invaded Cambodia”, as it does an excellent job covering this topic in detail. Politics and rationale in the communist world were strange almost beyond comprehension, and I think its important that more people understand how complicated these issues can be in the real world. The fact that we aligned ourselves with China instead of the USSR during the cold war was one of the stranger decisions that we’ve made.
The entire Sino-Soviet split was the result of a schism in the interpretations of the “Holy Scripture” of Marx, with China sticking to an extremely close, literal interpretation of the Communist Manifesto and the USSR adopting a more lenient, moderate approach and recognized that a direct confrontation with a nuclear-armed USA was probably not a good idea. Why we sided with China on this one I have no idea, but the conflicts between Vietnam, China, and Cambodia were all a direct result of this split.

东南亚政治与共产国际政治绝对是奇怪的。我强烈推荐一本书,名为“《为什么越南入侵柬埔寨》”,因为它在这个主题的细节方面做了出色的工作。在共产主义世界政治以及理论很奇怪几乎无法理解,我觉得这很重要,更越多的人了解问题的复杂性,越能认清世界真相。事实上,我们将中国推上冷战时期苏联的位置是我们做出的怪事。
中苏分裂是对马克思主义解读的分裂结果。中国主张极端封闭,严格按字面解读《GCD宣言》【包括暴力推翻资本主义的必要性】,而苏联的主张更为宽容温和,认识到和美国的核对抗不是什么好事。我不明白为什么我们和中国站在一边。但是越南、中国、柬埔寨的冲突是这次分裂的直接后果。
isisparadigm-》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
Reagan was more aggressive and a “million” people marched on Washington to try to get him to tone down. People should not have to die for other people’s faith. Reagan became popular after he was President and that too involved some of the faithful.
里根更具有攻击性,并且华盛顿的百万人大游行想把他搞下去。人不应该因为他人的信仰而失去。里根成为总统后,变得走红,这两者都涉及到一些忠实。
LarrySena -》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
Just my opinion, but it could be due to the alliances made during WWII. In the past, the USA flip-flopped between allying with Japan and China. By the time 1941 arrived, Japan was the imperialist “enemy”, and China was the “ally”. The USSR had already become a danger to the capitalistic West.
Roosevelt and Truman knew that the USSR wanted Eastern Europe….perhaps all of Europe. They saw Stalin and the Soviets as the greatest threat to the West – not China and its future plans.
个人观点,这可能和二战中的同盟有关。在过去美国在与中国还是日本结盟之中摇晃。1941年,日本成为帝国主义敌人,中国成为盟友。而苏联早已是资产主义西方的大敌。罗斯福和杜鲁门知道苏联希望获得东欧。。。甚至整个欧洲。他们视斯大林和苏联为西方大敌,而中国和他的未来计划不是。
Charina Bottae -》 LarrySena • 21 days ago
That was true for the 40’s and early 50’s, but by the time that China and the USSR officially split the situation had changed dramatically. China actually become more belligerent and openly threatening to the west than the Soviet Union was.
在四十年代和五十年代早期是如此,然而中苏分裂后情况发生了戏剧性变化。中国实际上变得比苏联更好斗,公然威胁西方。
LarrySena-》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
That may be true, but the US-USSR feud had taken on a life of its own by then. The Russians got the A-Bomb, the H-Bomb, and then they launched Sputnik in 1957. The Arms/Space Race was officially ON. Then came Cuba and the Bay of Pigs disaster.
The importance of Sputnik cannot be underestimated. Once it was known that the Russians had put devices in orbit, the Red Scare grew astronomically (pun intended!).
这可能是真的,但是美苏有着自己的恩怨,苏联拥有原子弹、氢弹,1957发射了卫星,和美国的太空军备竞赛,然后是古巴危机和猪湾灾难。
第一颗微型的重要性不可低估,一旦发现苏联能够在太空安放装备,红色恐惧达到了天文层次(双关)
isisparadigm-》 LarrySena • 21 days ago
Love the pun and the blog.
喜欢这个双关语和博客
Wunder Warthawg-》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
So you’re trying to say a country as foolish and ignorant and self-blinded as the United States needs to stay home and keep its criminal wars and giant toy military where the sun doesn’t shine?
那么,你想说的是一个像美国这样愚蠢无脑、自盲的国家需要呆在家里,将战争犯罪和巨大的军队玩具掩藏在阴影中。
isisparadigm -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
I was hoping for the One payer system so the Political hopefuls would have something more important to do. It is also hard to beat the NFL and praying Football players when they crank up the war machine.
我希望能够有个回报系统让政治候选人能够做一些更重要的事。当他们发动战争机器时,不管是击败民族解放阵线还是祈祷橄榄球运动员都很困难。
M D • 21 days ago
I would say the Chinese have played their pity card for the Japanese occupation in WWII, with their backing of the Khmer Rouge.
我要说的是中国人对红色高棉的支持等于是给二战中日本占领者发同情卡。
Charina Bottae-》 M D • 21 days ago
To be totally fair, the US also backed the Khmer Rouge because of our relationship with China at the time. It was terribly ironic because during the Sino-Soviet split, the US actually could and should have been closer friends with the USSR than with China, since China and their allies stuck with a much stricter, more literal interpretation of Marx than the USSR, eastern europe and Vietnam did.
公平起见,美国同样是红色高棉的后台,因为我们这时和中国一边。这真是可怕的讽刺,因为中苏分裂期间,美国实际上可以而且应该已经与苏联成为更密切的朋友,因为和苏联,东欧和越南不同,中国和他们的盟友坚持更加严格,教条主义的马克思主义。
Howard Johnson • 22 days ago
I wasn’t aware of their loss of 50,000 in a war with China in 1979. The Vietnamese hardly had a break between fighting the French, us, and then the Chinese.
我不知道他们在1979年和中国的战争中损失了50,000.越南人几乎没有间断地和法国、美国、中国战斗。
Wunder Warthawg -》 Howard Johnson • 21 days ago
And winning.
并且胜利
Male Kimp • 22 days ago
most of the people who would think the U.S. we pretty much killed off.
大部分人相信我们几乎杀死了美国。

Mike Lieberman • 22 days ago
Chinese actions are not their version of a Monroe Doctrine as some seem to think. China’s view of its neighbors is humorless and dismissive. Arrogance is not an unfair description of the rhetoric and the actions of the middle kingdom towards its neighbors. The US pivot has been a little slow and unconvincing to those in the region. A recent opinion page cartoon in the Philippine Daily Inquirer showed Filipinos and the USA Navy as pipsqueaks being set upon by a huge China. Feelings in Vietnam toward China are very much as is described as in this piece. Chinese nationals are present in large numbers in Vietnam and their economic impact on the economy is large. At the same time there is great antipathy towards the Chinese in their midst. ASEAN, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, responses to China have been tepid due to fear of retributions. It’s a mess in the region and the threat of war is real.
中国的行动不是某些人想象的某种版本的门罗主义。中国对邻居的观念是轻视和粗鲁。对于中央王国对邻居的言辞和行动,傲慢这个评价不是不公正的。美国的重返亚洲有点慢,对这个地区来不够可信。近日的《Philippine Daily Inquire》一页漫画上,画着站在菲律宾和美国海军两个侏儒旁边是巨大的中国。越南对中国的感观也类似。有大量中国公民在越南,中国对越南的经济影响巨大,同时他们对中国有极大反感。东盟对中国一向不冷不热原因在于他们的恐惧,这是混乱的根源,而战争的威胁是实在的。
CharlieHebdo-》 Mike Lieberman • 22 days ago
Oh – I think “humourless, dismissive, arrogance” pretty much sums up the Monroe Doctrine too.
嗯个,我想“粗鲁,轻视,傲慢”这些不就是门罗主义的特点吗。
vtbikerider • 22 days ago
Not surprised by this at all. We keep thinking that China wants a war or something with the United States when in actuality what they want to do is be able to influence events right in their own backyard– a 21st century version of the Monroe Doctrine. Their military, especially their navy is spending more and more time at sea and their weapons procurement is focused on sea denial rather than sea control. If they can keep the USN out of the area or present a perceived reasonable threat to the USN then it’ll be easier to influence events. Are we really willing to go to war over those islands for the Philippines or Viet-Nam? As long as they give the perception that they are then the Chinese can “win” without firing a shot.
对这些无需惊讶。我们以为中国想和美国大战一场,其实他们不过是想保护他们在后花园里的权力—一种二十一世纪的新门罗主义。他们的军事力量,特别是他们的海军越来越多地出海,他们的装备采购瞄准的是海洋封锁而不是海洋控制。如果他们能把美国势力驱除出这片海面,或者给美国一个现实的威胁,他们将容易影响本区。我们真愿意去为了菲律宾和越南的小岛而战?一旦他们有了这个念头,中国将不战而胜。
T Mur • 22 days ago
So would we join the Vietnamese in a war against China?
我可以加入越南向中国开战吗。
Wunder Warthawg -》 T Mur • 21 days ago
In case you don’t go into stores any more…we are now “Made in china”….they won.
那么你最好再也不要进入商店。。。我们已经是“中国制造”。。。他们已经胜利了。
higgs merino -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
“They don’t want to eat us for lunch, they just want to cook it.”
他们不想把我们当午餐吃掉,他们只想烹调它
vibrato -》 Wunder Warthawg • 21 days ago
At first glance, this would appear to be true, and yet, a few decades ago, it was “Made in Japan.”
初看起来是正确的,然而,若干年前,曾经有过“日本制造”
Robert Walther-》 T Mur • 22 days ago
China has been losing a war with itself for 3000 years. Just wait a bit…
中国将迎来3000年来的又一次败仗,只要再等一会儿。
N G • 22 days ago
The US lost a great opportunity to crush China during the Korean War, after China’s intervention on the side of the murderous North Koreans. A few small tactical nuclear detonations, down the length of the Yalu River and Peking, would have destroyed the Chinese command and control areas and relieved the pressure on our forces who had driven the North Koreans out of democratic South Korea.
在朝鲜战争中,美国错失了他粉碎中国的机会。在中国站在凶残的北朝鲜一边介入后,一些在北京和鸭绿江之间的小型战术核爆,将摧毁中国的指挥控制区,减轻我们军队的压力,帮助民主的南朝鲜消灭北朝鲜。
guesst-》 N G • 22 days ago
Sane Americans everywhere are ecstatic you weren’t in any position of command then.
任何有理智的美国人都会欣喜如狂,因为你不是指挥官。
N G-》 guesst • 21 days ago
Especially the one’s killed in Korea, huh!
特别是那些在朝鲜被杀的,哈!
Ron Shirtz-》 N G • 22 days ago
Absolutely insane. That was MacArthur plan. He disregarded his orders and his reckless advance to the Yalu river in freezing winter brought disaster on the UN and US forces in Korea. A six month war turned into a grueling 2 year one. Truman was right to bust him. Should have done it sooner.
昏了头了。那是麦克阿瑟的计划。他的违令和他的鲁莽推进,在冬天的鸭绿江导致了美军和联合国军在朝鲜的大灾难。六个月的战争演变为两年的苦战,杜鲁门将他解职是正确的,早就该这么做了。
N G-》 Ron Shirtz • 21 days ago
Really? His plan would have worked easily. He was right in trying to destroy the North Koreans. Mac was eccentric, but brilliant. Plus, look at the long term results of Truman’s command decision, China in ascendency and North Korea a virtual prison state. You’re so wrong and the proof is in the pudding.
是吗?他的计划其实可以让事情更为容易。他的摧毁北朝鲜的意图是正确的。麦克阿瑟不走常路,但是是伟大的。看看杜鲁门指挥的结果,中国的崛起和朝鲜的监狱状态。你错了,证据就在眼前。
Gary Isabusyguy -》 N G • 21 days ago
We could have never continued through NK to China because it would have brought USSR nukes into the picture
Much better to allow China to have its subservient border state and continue the march of global capitalism, which in case you haven’t noticed, has overwhelmed all nations

我们不可能将战争扩大到中国,这将引来苏联。
让中国拥有边界的从属国家,继续向全球资本主义进军要好得多。如果你没有注意到,这压倒了所有国家。
N G -》 Gary Isabusyguy • 21 days ago
We never would have had to enter China at all.
我们再也回不到了中国。
This comment was deleted.
评论被删
N G Guest -》• 21 days ago
The results of Truman’s decision are still resonating today, and I hope you like them. Mac was right, as history has proven.
杜鲁门的决定结果一直影响到今天,我希望你喜欢他们。麦克阿瑟是正确的,历史已经证明。
Ron Shirtz -》• N G • 21 days ago
So you think its ok for a general to be insubordinate to his CIC? That is the stuff military coups are made from.
所以你认为一个将军可以不听中央的指挥,这是军事政变的起由。
N G-》 Ron Shirtz • 21 days ago
Certainly not. and again, as events have proven, Mac was right.

当然不是,再说一遍,事实已经证明,麦克阿瑟的观点是对的。
LarrySena -》 N G • 22 days ago
Humanity would be long extinct by now if world leaders thought like you do.

如果世界领导人都像你这样想,人权将不复存在。

N G -》 LarrySena • 21 days ago
Nope, but the Chinese communist leadership would be. Millions of its citizens, not killed in Peking and in the Communist Army in Korea, would be alive also.
不,然而中共领导将会。数以百万计的中国人,没有杀死在北京和朝鲜的共产主义军队中,将活下来。
Gary Isabusyguy -》 N G • 21 days ago
That would have brought Russia in on the side of China and probably led to global nuclear disaster
As it was, Russia and China became foes
这将导致俄罗斯站在中国一边,引发全球性核灾难。
而不是曾经的那样,俄罗斯和中国成为仇敌。

N G -》 Gary Isabusyguy • 21 days ago
Nope.

Charina Bottae-》 N G • 21 days ago
“small tactical nuclear detonations”
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Anyway, no, your ideas are terrible. Do you really think the Soviet Union would have just sat there and watched when their, at the time, largest and closest ally got nuked?
小型战术核爆。
老天。。。。。
在任何情况下,你的观点都是可怕的。你你真的认为苏联会坐在那儿看着他们,当时,最大的和最亲密的有核武器盟友?
N G -》 Charina Bottae • 21 days ago
Yes I do. Consider the year, consider how long the Soviets had the bomb, breath deeply and think.
是的我这样认为,想想那时候,想想苏联获得核武才多久,深呼吸然后想想。

Gary Isabusyguy -》 N G • 21 days ago
Since you are re-writing history…
Imagine of we had welcomed Ho Chi Minh as a liberator in the manner of our own forefathers and recognized him as the leader of Vietnam?
Peace is a much more viable option than war
既然你在重构历史。
那么不如想象,我们把胡志明作为类似我们的先人那样的解放者来欢迎,承认他为越南领导人。和平将会成为更可行的选择
Benjamin Tedoff -》 N G • 22 days ago
“A few small tactical nuclear detonations, down the length of the Yalu River and Peking”
Yes, if we’d dropped nukes on Peking, we could have stopped North Korean Communists from taking over America.

“一些在北京和鸭绿江之间的小型战术核爆。”
如果这样做了的话,我想我们将想法要阻止北朝鲜GCD占领美国。

N G -》 Benjamin Tedoff • 21 days ago
Of course we may still have to fight soon, against the Chinese, now much, much stronger!
所以我们一直在中国人战斗。一直到现在,更为强大。
A R -》 N G • 21 days ago
And the Soviets would have just stood aside and politely applauded?
苏联也只是站在一旁礼貌地鼓掌?
N G -》 A R • 21 days ago
The Soviets had their hands full trying to control their newly conquered lands in Eastern Europe, and that prize was worth sacrificing China, who as luck would have it became disenchanted with the Soviets later anyway. Didn’t you pay attention in history in school?
苏联正忙于控制他们在东欧的新占领区,为此献祭中国是值得的,那个后来对苏联心灰意冷的国家。你在学校没学过历史吗?
Gary Isabusyguy -》 N G • 21 days ago
Divisions between China and Russia would have been forgotten in a hot war between US and China, just like Russia and the west were friends while Nazi Germany was at war
History
中苏的分歧将在中美的热战中遗忘,就像对纳粹战争中的俄国和西方一样。
higgs merino -》 N G • 21 days ago
So easy!
说得轻巧。

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